The facts detailed in the 49-page, unsealed indictment of defendant Donald J. Trump are deeply damning, and it’s obvious to anyone who looks soberly at what’s documented that this man is in serious legal jeopardy. The indictment chronicles in clear and compelling language 38 separate felony charges involving at least seven types of crimes, including 31 counts of willful retention of national defense information—which is a violation of the Espionage Act—as well as conspiracy to obstruct justice, corruptly concealing records and documents, concealing documents in an investigation, scheming to conceal and making false statements.
We now know that classified documents were found in “a ballroom, a bathroom and shower, an office space, his bedroom, and a storage room” at Mar-a-Lago, which the indictment calls “an active social club” where “tens of thousands of members and guests” visited. We have learned that Walt Nauta, Trump’s valet also named in the indictment, acted “at Trump’s direction” to move boxes of documents to Trump’s residence “to conceal them from Trump’s attorney, the FBI, and the grand jury.” The indictment also chronicles two cases when Trump recklessly showed documents to people lacking clearance, one involving a “plan of attack” which he acknowledged was “still a secret,” and another displaying “a classified map related to a military operation.”
The alleged content of these documents and their potential misuse could not be more serious. They include “information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries, United States nuclear programs, potential vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack,” the indictment says. “The unauthorized disclosure of these classified documents could put at risk the national security of the United States, foreign relations, the safety of the United States military and human sources and the continued viability of sensitive intelligence collection methods.”
In his brief statement on Friday, Special Counsel Jack Smith made clear what’s at stake and what his responsibility entails. "We have one set of laws in this country and they apply to everyone,” he said. “Applying those laws, collecting facts, that's what determines the outcome of an investigation. Nothing more and nothing less.” Performing their duty, a federal grand jury in the Southern District of Florida agreed.
Despite the gravity of his alleged criminality, Trump won’t necessarily be convicted, of course. We have witnessed his remarkable and consistent skill at delaying and avoiding accountability for criminal behavior, not only in the last seven years but throughout his adult life, so there is good reason to doubt the outcome in this case. The assignment of pro-Trump Judge Aileen Cannon, at least for now, surely gave many of us trepidation (although her involvement can be appealed if she remains the assigned judge and refuses to recuse herself).
To be sure, like every criminal defendant, Donald Trump is provided the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. But I think it’s worth asking where you think this is heading, based on what we know so far. Will Trump be convicted? Can he be convicted given the political complications of his declared candidacy for president and the aggressive efforts by leading Republicans to defend him and dismiss the legal facts? Have you become so skeptical that the possibility of conviction seems impossible to achieve? And, as a related matter that I addressed in my post Thursday night when news of the indictment broke, do you still believe that no one is above the law? And is the rule of law still intact?
I look forward to reading your observations and the opportunity for this community to learn from each other. As always, please do be respectful in your comments.
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*Photo credit of Jack Smith taken on June 9, 2023: Tom Brenner for The Washington Post via Getty Images.
Convicted, yes, incarcerated doubtful. Till the end of his days he will remain a danger to the United States of America. And of course -we have no idea how much he already shared, sold, exposed our national security.
Seriously Steve, you think 45 will serve no prison time??? I repeat:
It would be a tragedy on top of tragedies. There is no way to dodge this issue... either the laws apply to everyone or we are not a nation of laws. THIS is this generations time to take a stand. IF CONVICTED HE MUST SERVE PRISON TIME. WE, we the people need him to treated like everyone else.
I no longer speculate on anything that may or may not happen in our country. There has been so little that recommends expecting justice in America. It begins with the genocide of the First Nation Peoples, straight through to the mass lynching and persecution of Black Americans (ongoing since 1609), the egregious meddling in foreign regime changes and assassinations sanctioned by presidents of both political parties, the many crimes of corrupt and seditious billionaires, Congress people and Trump himself that remain unanswered. Very little justice anywhere. I detach as best I can and hope to be surprised. I was so happy the night we learned Barak Obama had been elected as our President and then he shattered my heart into a thousand pieces.
Men are men and without equal representation by women to temper man’s natural inclination to war and kill and take more than he needs from others, we will remain a nation that is itself corrupt and will breed and harbor corruption. Trump and co. are just the end stage metastasization that is taking the whole giant beast down.
I know it sounds as if I’m all doom and gloom but I’m not. I still do what I can to resist, I see the beauty around me, and I love my family. But I miss the wonder and the joys of my childhood, when I was free to roam, we took care of each other, and innocence gave us (white people) a sense of wellbeing. I’m glad to live in reality now, but I do miss the promise of America. I miss it alot.
Oh, Alexis, you paint such a bleak picture of America. I recommend an article recently in the NY Times by Nicolas Kristof about the good things in the world. I lived in Berlin 50 years ago. People would stop me on the streets to tell me what a great country US is, what generous winners we are. Yes, history is full of horrors too. Not to diminish our faults, but we have justly been a beacon of hope to the world until probably the Reagan years... until money/power started moving into fewer and fewer hands. Still there is a large progressive, caring for others, part to what is America. I've tried to live as a fully awake woman, certainly experienced injustice... but so much less than other countries. Please try to by proud of your country for at least recognizing, talking about, trying to fix where we stray. Thank you for caring!
Lynn, the picture of America *is* bleak. I see no value in ignoring the facts. Nor do I see any reason to be proud – of what should I be proud? But I also mentioned in my comment that, “I know it sounds as if I’m all doom and gloom but I’m not. I still do what I can to resist, I see the beauty around me, and I love my family. … I’m glad to live in reality now, but I do miss the promise of America. I miss it alot.”
Fifty years ago we had much to commend us. We *were* generous winners. But that was the result of a generous government that gave us wages we could live on, college educations that didn’t put us in debt of as much as half a million dollars, unions that protected workers, environmental protections, clean drinking water for God’s sake, corporations that took care of their workers with good salaries , good hours, good pensions – and workers who, in kind, took care of the corporations they worked for – homes we could afford to buy (if we were white) and apartments we could afford to rent, and on and on it goes. People who live with a sense of security are kind to one another because they don’t feel threatened by lack. Take away everything that gives quality to a life and people are going to be suspicious of anyone they think might take away what little they have. They become mean and cruel.
No, Lynn, I am not proud of my country. She is sick. But because I love her, I want to take care of her and hope with all my heart she won’t die. America is very close to dying. She is a ghost of her former self, each breath struggling to stay alive. If we don’t understand this, we cannot know how to save her, and remembering a glorious past does nothing if we aren’t willing to fight for that promise of America.
Alexis, what a wonderful list of objectives to work toward. I’ve listed them in the order you described them:
• living wages–
• affordable college educations–
• viable unions that protected workers–
• environmental protections–
• clean drinking water and air–
• corporations that care about their workers–
• good salaries, good hours, good pensions–
• workers who take care of the corporations they worked for–
• homes we could afford to buy–
• apartments we could afford to rent–
• people live with a sense of security–
• people are kind to one another–
• people don’t feel threatened by lack of necessities–
Your list falls into three general categories: Economy ) environment ) peoples state of being)… nested worlds. We know how to address all three… first we have to stop the flow of the country’s wealth into the hands of fewer people… that will improve the economy (that serves) the environment (that serves) peoples state of being.
I could go on, but, does this make sense? Thank you.
But sadly he isn't like everybody else. There's the issue of Secret Service protection. There's the issue of all the secrets that he may still hold in his admittedly small brain. Personally I think any conviction should result in him losing his secret service protection, but I guess that's an issue for congress. So no...sadly, I think he will not serve one minute behind bars.
Oh I hope you are wrong. I can;t imagine why the secrets he has are more dangerous in prison than out. He can be kept in solitary confinement if natural security is at stake. He could call Putin or bin Salman any time if free to blab more. He couldn't from prison. What do you think?
As Lynn stated above: If convicted, Trump MUST spend time behind bars. Lynn didn't say it, but I also believe that if he's convicted under the Espionage Act he should lose all access to the internet and should have all his phone calls monitored while he serves his sentence behind bars. In addition, a conviction of crimes covered by the Espionage Act should result in loss of Secret Service protections, his government pension, his medical care (other than what's available to other inmates) and any other financial rewards related to his term as President. Additionally, he should not have an official portrait hanging in the Capital or the White House, and he should not be given a State funeral when he dies, either in prison or out. In short, he should be treated like any other citizen convicted under the provisions of the Espionage Act. If so convicted, he becomes a traitor to the country in my opinion.
Jack Smith has a strategy. You can bet he's also researched Cannon seven ways to heaven. Someone called him a bulldog. He's tried worse criminals that trump at the Hague. He always wins. There is also Jay Bratt who is Chief of the Counterintelligence and Export Control Section, The National Security Division, U.S. Department of Justice. Both of them play to win. The statistics show it.
He doesn't ALWAYS win and has been reversed twice on appeal. Do I think he's Is incredibly good? Absolutely! But just wanted to set the record straight.
Remember: we had a lot of hope in the Mueller investigation too. Trump is the AntiChrist and has slithered his way out of every possible punishment for his foul misdeeds. He’s a festering cancer on this nation and continues to metastasize through nearly every member of the GOP. I feel very uneasy about the next year.
I remember when we voted in 2016 and how he won against incredible odds. Many didn't take him seriously and didn't vote because it was between 2 evils as they said. Many didn't vote because they looked at the polls and they saw that Hillary was ahead.
Mueller had his hands tied from the beginning. Rosenberg and Barr quashed it and they would have been the ones to agree and permit any indictments that were to be recommended.
This is different. Merrick Garland has hired someone who was a prosecutor for the Hague. You have to be the creme da le creme. He also has not said anything giving away where the investigations are. This surprised me because I didn't expect this so soon. I realize now where he's going. This indictment is the easier than J6. For evidence in indicting trump with sedition, treason, conspiracy is going to have to be air tight before any indictments. Also he is smart to leave J6 indictments until more of the terrorists are indicted and found guilty because he can then use those verdicts to trump plus others. It's set a precedent. They are also several other crimes that are being investigated. So this is the beginning.
As a historical theologian I. must question if he's the Anti-christ. I think the anti-christ would be much smarter, nimble and handsome. If you meant it metaphorically I am OK with it.
I am kind of at a state that we return to a form of barbarism. Let’s turn Fake45 upside down until he either cries “uncle” or the fluids from his body run out of his nose or mouth. He has been able to slickly slide through so many situations. He hugs the American flag like it’s one of his mistresses but really, he loves the greed, the grift. I want him imprisoned for life. If he is allowed to stay at Mar-a-Lago, he should be confined to two rooms, his bedroom and the notorious bathroom, meals served there, all monies made at his clubs to be given to the government and to people he’s hurt...us! He is to be isolated from any friends or patrons, not allowed to use texting nor Truth Social or Twitter. Give him an old-fashioned typewriter. Reduce him to nothing, assets and all. Let him whine and wither away. Yes, I had thought long and hard about this. He caused havoc and chaos. He must pay for his crimes.
Ditto, wrote the same in a complaint filed to DOJ on J6, plenty of room for all of the Seditious Conspirators. I have read that there is a particularly nasty wing which would be ideal for this POS. They could have the boat parades he loves on visiting day, very accommodating, for all concerned.
It would be a tragedy on top of tragedies. There is no way to dodge this issue... either the laws apply to everyone or we are not a nation of laws. THIS is this generations time to take a stand. IF CONVICTED HE MUST SERVE PRISON TIME. Anything less and we are lost.
As John Adams stated we are “a government of laws, and not of men.” It seems quite evident that the former President, Donald J. Trump, broke a number of laws and if found guilty should be penalized just like any other citizen. I pray the country as a whole will see the gravity of these multiple charges and that justice will be served fully and as swiftly as possible.
Does it sound a bit like a dime-store novel that the judge who can blow the case out of the water (metaphorically) is named "Cannon?" . . .
She might be assigned only for the arraignment. And she may have been chastened by the "conservative" 5th Circuit. But how can our country be so fragile?
And the euphemistically called "right" wing went "ballistic" when seeing Chinese balloons. But they are totally fine with exposing nuclear secrets to anyone who wanders into the Spanish-style pool and tennis club called Mara Lago*
*Note: a "Mara Lago" is [fittingly] a "long-legged long-eared rodent (Dolichotis magellanica) closely related to the cavies and widely distributed in southern South America." cf Merriam-Webster Dict.
My perception is that the U.S. justice system is not working well. Rich people get away with stuff all the time while the poor get pounded with the full force of the law for the slightest infraction.
This is correct. Rich people can drown the system in delaying tactics, while the less well-off have to take plea bargains. Trump may eventually get convicted, since the case looks very strong and his behavior was so egregious, but it will take years and he may well die first. He’ll never do time. The absolute worst possible outcome (from his perspective) is home detention with a leg bracelet.
From my part I like the part that says he dies first - but that is up to Mother Nature - not nice trying to fool her she and karma will take him down eventually...
It’s going to be a long wait. There are more republican idiots in Congress than ever. They’re
getting paid to pretend what the anti-government
whiners believe is real. They sabotage every attempt
to help ordinary people and keep shoveling money
to the wealthy. Their latest budget maneuvers are
evidence of it. The “freedom caucus” was prepared to destroy our economy over Dem attempts to make sure people can afford healthcare, seniors & children have enough to eat, etc. The purpose of government
is to defend against hostile enemies and make sure the people have what they need to survive--not to
Addendum: I said there are more idiots in Congress than ever. But they aren’t idiots. They are people who think it’s in their best interests as members of Congress to pretend the U.S., is a certain way--a way most people in the U.S. don’t agree with.
What these people in Congress pretend, among other things & as far as I can tell, is that our government is a sham. It was supposedly a sham before Donald Trump was “president,” and it’s supposedly a sham again after his “presidency.” I think they believe, or pretend to believe, our government exists for a relatively small, “elite” group of people. While that may be true on some level, it isn’t true on all levels.
The angry crowd who wants to “burn it all down,” (even metaphorically)couldn’t be more wrong. All that would accomplish is to terrify innocent people and children who don’t deserve to have their world fall apart around them (which is exactly what’s happening to the people of Ukraine.)
Speaking of Ukraine, every time there’s violence in
our country, whether it’s mass shootings, organized violence for political reasons or lone wolf violence
motivated by politics, there are two people who celebrate it more than any others--Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. Vlad & Don both want, facilitate and manipulate Americans to be violent because
violence furthers their goals--not your goals or our goals, THEIR goals. They are partners in their desire
to loot America and the republicans in Congress I
described above have either been manipulated into
helping them or they help because they believe they
will gain from it. Either way it’s the voters who will win lose.
Large scale violence creates chaos, chaos creates
instability, chaos and instability create cover for
people inclined to steal, loot & murder. It also creates uncertainty that affects the financial markets and the economy negatively. People who
are stable, love their family and care about their friends and neighbors don’t want a wrecked economy.
If you think the pretenders in Congress are “on your side,” they aren’t. They acted and talked like they were willing to destroy our economy and blame it on democrats and President Biden to prove a point about the debt. But what they wanted--a certain percentage of spending cuts across the board-- would have thrown millions of people out of work, so how would that have helped our economy?(Members of Congress would still get their paychecks though.)
So, bottom line, violence and extremism don’t help anyone but Donald Trump and Vlad Putin because their intentions aren’t to do the right thing for the
U.S. or us, even though Trump pretends he wants to
help. All he does is tell people what they want to hear and then blame a scapegoat if things go badly.
I don't think he'll ever go to jail, but being barred from holding any public office would be enough for me. Of course, he might be facing other federal and state charges.
Being barred from holding any elective office would not be enough for me. He's got an entire grifting family. All of the grifts would still continue. Maybe he would start his own church since so many people seem to think he's the son of God. Nauseating and scary But not impossible. Then he could have a tax exempt way of grifting! Yiikes!
No it's not just in impeachment. 18 U.S. Code § 2071 (b) - Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, wilfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term “office” does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States.
That hasn't been included in on these charges. They could add them later. Or maybe Jack Smith will include sedition and treason on the Jan 6th indictments.
The GOP is dead but they just don't know it. Over 60% of Millennials & GenZ voters say they will never vote for a Republican because: They have been paying attention!
Trump will likely take a plea deal as: Lordy, Lordy -there are tapes
But he will also be indicted in Jan 6th DC case & GA Voting ones so his troubles have just begin
There are no good days left in that miserable traitor's life & I am here for all of them.
I've read the indictment. What I'm concerned about is finding a jury composed of people who can accept the facts presented to them. All it will take to derail a guilty verdict is one jury member with fealty to trump. I'm also concerned about the judge letting trump pull his usual delay, delay, delay - oops we're in an election.
A grand jury group of his peers who live in Florida were able to do it. So I have hope another well selected jury could do it again. Not everyone in Florida is a Trump fan.
He’s going down, unless he can fluke a dodgy juror.
Even if he wins this case, there’s a second stage indictment coming for the docs, plus J6 indictments, Georgia, NY, and the case of campaign finance fraud identified by the J6 Committee.
Don't forget that the juror pool comes from very red Florida; it will be tough to know if the jurors are really open to evidence or some closeted MAGA adherents.
The failure of our democracy is on us, the people. Arguably, there are many cultural, technological, and sociological reasons for this but in the end it's us that have ceded order for anarchy. When truth becomes a subjective concept, there can longer be any moral center. That is where we are now in America.
The facts - facts being a victim of the degradation of truth - clearly indicate a crime. But crimes need truth to prove. For those of us who haven't lost the concept of truth, this is an open and shut case; but we're so far gone as a nation that facts, truth, and crime and justice are no longer incontrovertible pillars of our society. Thus, it's doubtful that trump will ever spend a minute of penance for these crimes.
"When truth becomes a subjective concept, there can no longer be any moral center." This is how I see it, too. Been saying for a while now - when facts can be "alternative" there is no truth. No honesty. Accountability, hypocrisy and projection don't exist. There is no reasoning with this and compromise is impossible. The rule of law is gone. Democracy itself is in a perilous position. If democracy doesn't prevail, something else will. IMHO
to quote W.B. Yates: "Things fall apart, the center cannot hold, mere anarchy is loosed upon the world. The blood-dimmed tide is loosed and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned. The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity." I never thought I'd see that in my lifetime.
I am troubled that many TV pundits and commentators, and Mr. Beschloss, express doubts about Trump's conviction. Why sow such seeds, thoughts? There is a fine line between a fear and a wish, often the same. Would it not be better to express confidence on the American people, and, given the evidence, be surprised if Trump is not convicted.
We have seen the court become more and more greedy and corrupt from the Supremes to the Southern District of Florida with Judge Cannon. Trump led an insurrection. The Republican congress is not helpful. Actually the Republican party has turned into a Maga Soap Opera. People do not read. Perhaps Jack Smith's Insurrection venue will provide some results in time to jail this traitor. But I despair. Has the reach of fascism taken us over? We started as men with slaves and women with no voice. We have a mega rich ruling class, women's rights restricted and a criminal who sells our military secrets to Saudis for golf tournaments. It's somewhat unfounded, I admit... or is it?
While reading the indictment Rex Tillerson, formerly Trump's Energy Secretary, came to mind. Rex told friends that Don was a "moron". Which is obvious to anyone who pays any attention to Trump's mental incapacity. Fans and pundits fail to mention this, when it is plain fact, every time the man opens his mouth. This is beyond narcissism. What sane and average IQ human thinks they can get away with taking and hiding and refusing to return top secret documents? More than poor judgment. This is stupidity, idiocy, irrationality. Please Steven, tell your friends in the media--all sides--to tell the truth about Trump's incapacity to reason. Mentally unfit for any public office.
It's not stupidity, it's a kind of tribalism. MAGAs live in their Limbic Systems so they're driven by feelings, specifically feelings of belonging and acceptance. It's pre-verbal and pre-logic. I don't know if evidence can reach them. If it does, it will have to be presented by a trusted source. They won't listen to any one they define as Leftist. They don't trust the Biden Administration. Trump has convinced them all law enforcement agencies are corrupt. I think he can be convicted. I think between Jack Smith, Alvin Bragg and Fani Willis we can get him to serve at least some jail time. The problem is where to house him. If we don't want more armed attacks, we'd better send him to Guantanamo Bay so there's less chance of his Gravy Seals trying to break him out. I hope enough of them were scared off by the Seditious Conspiracy convictions that they can't mount a large scale attack anywhere. This won't happen, but because he wants to take away the birthright to citizenship for the children of immigrants, I wish he could be stripped of his citizenship and sent into exile. Let him go to Russia or Dubai and never let him come back. Seize all his properties and assets and give the money to the VA & to house homeless veterans. Turn MaraLago into a homeless compound with all the Social Services and care the residents need. Whatever we do, he MUST spend time in jail. That is not negotiable. He's lucky he doesn't get the Rosenberg treatment.
I don’t like this judge either. I watched my local news channel last night. They asked random people on the street what they think. More than half questioned said they still support trump. He’s not above the law. I’m very concerned about the constant drumbeat of violent threats from the right wing nut jobs.
I'm subjected to the MAGAt's daily here, FL really has changed for the worst in just the last 10 years especially. I mean never in the 30 years I've lived here off and on would I have ever anticipated actual Nazis protesting outside Disney World!
I remember Trump saying to someone before he ran for President the first time that if he ran for political office, he would run as a Republican because they were "stupid".
I thought he meant it literally.
Now I believe he meant they were stupid for letting Richard Nixon get caught.
The indictment is beyond horrifying. However, there is a long, mine-strewn road between here and conviction. If Aileen Cannon presides over this case, the US is in real trouble. The indictment is step 1. When the shock and (barely repressed) jubilation over Jack Scott’s report... we are left with the reality of what pro-democracy people will be facing.
Btw: what happened to the $2 billion MDS handed over to Jared Kushner, scion of a felon family. No audit trail of where that gift went??
I heard on the amicus podcast that it could likely end up being some kind of “home-confinement” type situation. Which kind of sucks after all the chaos that monster has set loose in this country .
"Home-confinement" in his mansion/estate with his gilded toilets, his tapestries, servants, and obscene wealth? This would be a punishment? That would be an obscene miscarriage of justice.
Trump wasn’t legally elected in the first place. Why that was ignored I have no idea. But I’m thinking it’s possible to use that fact to deny Trump any and all
things associated with being an ex-president ...like a secret service detail and a pension.
We live in strange times. I’d like to think he’d be convicted based on the evidence, though I can’t imagine him serving any jail time. But I’m pretty jaded by the amount of people who still worship him to believe it’s a slam dunk. I do fully believe if he takes power again, that after almost 250 years, the Republic is dead.
Steve: another question? Trump continually claims that he had a “right” to possess these classified documents under the “Presidential Records Act”? I have read this Act with a lawyer’s perspective and cannot find a single sentence in that Act which would give a former President any authority to retain classified material? Do you agree?
Most concerning is the general politicization of this by the GOP. Calling this a Biden indictment means they have no respect for the Grand Jury system. Until the remaining coup supporting members of Congress are expelled and held accountable they will continue to attack our system of law. God forbid they regain meaningful majorities and the executive branch. DeSantis has an vision for how he wants to weaponize DOJ and the Ex branch. I fear for the future of our country.
He would, obviously, have to be kept outside the general prison population, which is a fitting punishment for TFG who's fragile ego needs constant reinforcement from his adoring "cult members". Lock him up and throw away the key, I say.
I often wonder if we had properly held Reagan, Poppy Bush, and Nixon... (or any one of them really) to proper account for their clearly criminal actions, if we'd have still arrived at the Trump criminal enterprise administration as it played out in our reality.
I don't think this country can survive yet another illustration that the wealthy and political elite reside above the law, while we concurrently have states trying to criminalize abortion and homelessness against the plebs.
Either we are a country of laws, values, and ideals. Or we are not.
Trump is the ultimate litmus test for what we are going forward.
I admit I am an irredeemable cynic. It's too much of a coincidence that Canon got assigned. I have my suspicions that Garland is sandbagging the case because he's a secret MAGAT. Although it seems impossible that anyone could read the indictment and come away thinking orangehead should be exonerated. Nevertheless it's too fantastic.
I hadn’t thought of Gitmo as a depository for Trump until I saw Sharon’s comment..It is the ideal place for him..I believe he can be convinced as long as the trial does not become a circus and the jury is instructed properly and takes their responsibility seriously..
Regarding this Judge..Considering the ass kicking Aileen Cannon got from the 11th Circuit the last time she passed this way every word she speaks, every ruling she makes will be scrutinized..I would not be surprised if the 11th Circuit has their own people present in the courtroom should she end up hearing this matter at all..She is in a career killing position should she fuck any of it up..Her best move would be to find a way to gracefully recuse..
However, to Alexis’ point, DOJ will likely have a person in court who’s only job will be to focus on Cannon’s every move..
And should this end with a conviction, he should be shuttled right down to Gitmo to be held until sentencing..Personally, at arraignment I would remand him without bond in Gitmo pending trial..But that will never happen..
I just don't understand why our laws allow him to run for president after being impeached twice and indicted twice. What is wrong with us? Why are we held hostage to this criminal? Is there a way to stop him?
They should ask/demand that the judge recuse. She has a track record demonstrating her bias for Trump. As an attorney who’s spent a lot of time in court I know I can’t take her seriously. I would expect her to screw things up and endlessly delay the proceedings every possible way she can on Trump’s behalf. It’s common knowledge that Trump will try to delay
everything. It’s his modus operandi. The American people have suffered enough from this poser. He wasn’t legally elected in the first place.
I trust Jack Smith. Regardless of any maneuvers and delays, there is overwhelming and self incriminating evidence to his guilt. And there is NO DEFENSE. None.
The Grand Jury made up of south Florida folks brought the indictment. Another trial jury of south Florida folks can weigh the evidence and make a decision.
Because of the various levels of classification and military related documents retrieved, couldn't this have been assigned to the jurisdiction of military tribunal? It doesn't make sense to have regular citizens be jurors on a trial where there is evidence they do not have clearance to view. I also like that there are no appeals, in the military tribunal process, why not trump his SOP ?
I fear that what is known and aspired to as “the rule of law” (indeed if it ever existed for the privileged) - is at best in recovery from the blow it took under the evil simpleton. Watching and hoping it recovers, if only for the sake of our children.
His legal experience is a lifetime of civil cases. Stalling and bravado is somewhat effective against a plaintiff. This is a criminal case, a different world. Also, he is up against a brilliant prosecutor. I cannot help placing my faith in the normal people who will make up the jury.
Trump has taken to his usual fire-and-brimstone bluster, verbally attacking everyone involved in the investigations, and staunchly claiming that he has done nothing wrong. I purpose that he has committed wrong-doing all his life; that is his MO. Trump's cavalier attitude towards the indictment, is further proof of his void of litigious knowledge. His valet, Walt Nauta, also named in the indictment, played a hands-on insider role, that will be crucial to the proceedings. 38 felony charges including violation of The Espionage Act is a ticket to incarceration. While Trump erroneously believes he is exempt from accountability, the prosecutorial 'gravity' of these serious charges, will virtually consume him. Two members of Trump's legal team have resigned , and more may follow. America's grand deceiver is mired in a vat of his own ill-repute and criminality, from which there is no escape.
The Rule of Law has been proven to me to mean the rule of the wealthy elite to rule over the rest of us. Congress has been captured and is run by ignorant loons made wealthy by the oligarchs. Dishonest Thomas remains on the “Extreme Court.” (YES, we had one measly win with Alabama this past week, but look what they have done and how Thomas remains unscathed for all his Crowing.)
The evil that seeps from every pore of the Trumps and Kushner has been rewarded and these indictments have not changed the minds of the GOP. My optimism about America has been shred into a thousand tiny shards.
While you have engaged us in discussions about Jack Smith in previous writing, Steven, there was a measure of doubt, as to his ability, to secure the conviction of Donald Trump. I chimed in that we had to trust in his abilities. We have been metaphorically champing at the bit, with a mixture of anticipation and trepidation as the investigative appeared to be moving slowly. However, with the unsealing of the indictment listing 37 violations, ,it is clear to me that Smith applied the utmost due diligence, in his investigation. Pictures of Bankers boxes and files in disarray, were found in various unsecured rooms, and even in a Bathroom. Trump's absolute disregard for the security of classified information is appalling. His fealty to the likes of Putin, Kim Jon Un and MBS is well-established, and I believe they may continue to be in contact with one another. There is every reason to believe that confidential information could, and probably was, shared with America's adversaries. I predicted long before Trump's departure from DC, that they should inventory the White House heirlooms, works of art and even the silverware. Nothing is sacred to 'individual 1'; NOTHING. Trump is a high-flying grifter extraordinaire. Everything he has ever done throughout his life, including his tenure in the White House, was for the sole benefit of himself, and family members. I watched excerpts of his campaign speech in NC, wherein he categorically denied any wrongdoing, mocked the charges, and flagged his usual lament that this was a prosecutorial 'witch hunt'. He has never feared consequences. He barrelled over every governmental protocol and procedure while holding Office, with hardly a whimper from the GOP, and he continues his tirade on the political campaign, with the same brutish gusto today. Alarming is not an adequate word to describe Trump's willingness to cavalierly put his country and citizens in grave danger. His evil knows no bounds and his ill-repute is characteristic of autocrats and medieval invaders. Except, in this case, Donald Trump has been methodically on a path to destroy America.
We must proceed with caution. The world is watching. Our laws mean nothing if Donald Trump is allowed to have stolen top secret documents, defy a subpoena, put the national security of our country and others at risk, lie, and more without being held accountable. The evidence is beyond damning. We have much work to do to change our political climate and rein in corruption. I often harken back to 2015. Trump declared his candidacy and people said, “Give him a chance. How much harm could he do?” Look at us! Now the question is can we fix what he broke?
There must be a moment, when he must pay for the crimes he has committed, like everybody else!
He had his chances, and there must be a time, when things are just no longer about him!
If there is any “opposition” to his imprisonment, then only, because it opens the door for an easy follow, for everybody else below him!
Understandable, but every Criminal should pay for crimes they have committed!
Trump became and will continue to be a danger to Society, to our children’s future, and to our World! Understand the differences between lying and cheating, or Treason, High Treason, whatever the case!
We don’t know yet!
There is the threat of upheaval of all kind, we have already been there, but now, let’s take our chance, law and order must prevail to restore our fragile Democracy!
Beware, we are only at the very beginning of this whole Trump saga, surrounded by many who only wish us, I'll will of all kind!
Aileen Cannon's appointment is a nightmare flashback for me. Not again!? He seemed lined up to be held partially accountable, then the cavalry shows up. Please say it isn't so.
I absolutely believe he SHOULD be found guilty. If he does go to prison- as he SHOULD, he would most certainly have to be put somewhere that keeps him out of the general population. He may have a LOT of fans in prison as well.
What truly scares the hell out of me for this is what happens if he somehow gets elected. I worry there may be a way the other politicians will find to put him in charge of these kind of state secrets again. What would he do with them this time? What has he already sold to our adversaries? What deals has he made with Russia already? With Saudi Arabia? With the Taliban? What will happen if he does go to prison? Will people try to get him out.
More than anything what kind of place are we going to leave for our children or grandchildren? What happens to their lives? I fear for their future....
Possible conviction complication seen by MSNBC's Ari Melber: Judge Aileen Cannon presides but delays and delays. Trump gets himself nominated, then elected. Right after inauguratiohe guts DoJ and his cases g et tossed66⁵ out.
If Trump is not convicted, it may be the end of the rule of law in America. If not convicted, what will future leaders do? Doesn't make any difference who they are or what their politics are, they will not feel obligated to follow the rules, especially the ethics and morals that go along with the rule of law. We are country of laws, not men, and the lack of a conviction would damage that greatly.
As to his incarceration, I personally feel, especially after reading this indictment, how the court does not incarcerate him if convicted, and how can he not be convicted? How can Trump prepare an effective defense against these charges and the evidence, just based on what we have seen? Don't you think Smith has much more that he hasn't shown? I am sure Trump will continue to rely on more lying and deception, and there are those who have done much less over the past two hundred years than Trump who have been branded traitors, which he is, no doubt, especially after combining these indictments with those coming from the January 6 investigation. He must go down. His so called empire must be totally destroyed, and his minions must be treated in the same manner ASAP. Maybe we should bring back firing squads, only after due process, of course. Wouldn't that send a message?
There is no escaping the fact that Trump has been blasphemously equated to Jesus by both overt and secretive Christian Nationalists. Trump will use this every way possible to escape prison as will all but a few Republicans of good conscience. Power supersedes all morality, ethics, and decency in the GOP. Cult leaders and zealots require no less action than that exerted by the United States against the Confederate treason.
Convicted, yes, incarcerated doubtful. Till the end of his days he will remain a danger to the United States of America. And of course -we have no idea how much he already shared, sold, exposed our national security.
True. We don’t altogether know to what extent he’s distributed these materials.
Seriously Steve, you think 45 will serve no prison time??? I repeat:
It would be a tragedy on top of tragedies. There is no way to dodge this issue... either the laws apply to everyone or we are not a nation of laws. THIS is this generations time to take a stand. IF CONVICTED HE MUST SERVE PRISON TIME. WE, we the people need him to treated like everyone else.
I was referring to the issue of his possible distribution of the documents, not the question of imprisonment.
Sadly, we are a nation of laws ONLY for certain classes of people. The past decade has shown us this over and over.
I no longer speculate on anything that may or may not happen in our country. There has been so little that recommends expecting justice in America. It begins with the genocide of the First Nation Peoples, straight through to the mass lynching and persecution of Black Americans (ongoing since 1609), the egregious meddling in foreign regime changes and assassinations sanctioned by presidents of both political parties, the many crimes of corrupt and seditious billionaires, Congress people and Trump himself that remain unanswered. Very little justice anywhere. I detach as best I can and hope to be surprised. I was so happy the night we learned Barak Obama had been elected as our President and then he shattered my heart into a thousand pieces.
Men are men and without equal representation by women to temper man’s natural inclination to war and kill and take more than he needs from others, we will remain a nation that is itself corrupt and will breed and harbor corruption. Trump and co. are just the end stage metastasization that is taking the whole giant beast down.
I know it sounds as if I’m all doom and gloom but I’m not. I still do what I can to resist, I see the beauty around me, and I love my family. But I miss the wonder and the joys of my childhood, when I was free to roam, we took care of each other, and innocence gave us (white people) a sense of wellbeing. I’m glad to live in reality now, but I do miss the promise of America. I miss it alot.
Oh, Alexis, you paint such a bleak picture of America. I recommend an article recently in the NY Times by Nicolas Kristof about the good things in the world. I lived in Berlin 50 years ago. People would stop me on the streets to tell me what a great country US is, what generous winners we are. Yes, history is full of horrors too. Not to diminish our faults, but we have justly been a beacon of hope to the world until probably the Reagan years... until money/power started moving into fewer and fewer hands. Still there is a large progressive, caring for others, part to what is America. I've tried to live as a fully awake woman, certainly experienced injustice... but so much less than other countries. Please try to by proud of your country for at least recognizing, talking about, trying to fix where we stray. Thank you for caring!
Lynn, the picture of America *is* bleak. I see no value in ignoring the facts. Nor do I see any reason to be proud – of what should I be proud? But I also mentioned in my comment that, “I know it sounds as if I’m all doom and gloom but I’m not. I still do what I can to resist, I see the beauty around me, and I love my family. … I’m glad to live in reality now, but I do miss the promise of America. I miss it alot.”
Fifty years ago we had much to commend us. We *were* generous winners. But that was the result of a generous government that gave us wages we could live on, college educations that didn’t put us in debt of as much as half a million dollars, unions that protected workers, environmental protections, clean drinking water for God’s sake, corporations that took care of their workers with good salaries , good hours, good pensions – and workers who, in kind, took care of the corporations they worked for – homes we could afford to buy (if we were white) and apartments we could afford to rent, and on and on it goes. People who live with a sense of security are kind to one another because they don’t feel threatened by lack. Take away everything that gives quality to a life and people are going to be suspicious of anyone they think might take away what little they have. They become mean and cruel.
No, Lynn, I am not proud of my country. She is sick. But because I love her, I want to take care of her and hope with all my heart she won’t die. America is very close to dying. She is a ghost of her former self, each breath struggling to stay alive. If we don’t understand this, we cannot know how to save her, and remembering a glorious past does nothing if we aren’t willing to fight for that promise of America.
Alexis, what a wonderful list of objectives to work toward. I’ve listed them in the order you described them:
• living wages–
• affordable college educations–
• viable unions that protected workers–
• environmental protections–
• clean drinking water and air–
• corporations that care about their workers–
• good salaries, good hours, good pensions–
• workers who take care of the corporations they worked for–
• homes we could afford to buy–
• apartments we could afford to rent–
• people live with a sense of security–
• people are kind to one another–
• people don’t feel threatened by lack of necessities–
Your list falls into three general categories: Economy ) environment ) peoples state of being)… nested worlds. We know how to address all three… first we have to stop the flow of the country’s wealth into the hands of fewer people… that will improve the economy (that serves) the environment (that serves) peoples state of being.
I could go on, but, does this make sense? Thank you.
Innocence of inconvenient truth was never the promise of America, when at its best.
But sadly he isn't like everybody else. There's the issue of Secret Service protection. There's the issue of all the secrets that he may still hold in his admittedly small brain. Personally I think any conviction should result in him losing his secret service protection, but I guess that's an issue for congress. So no...sadly, I think he will not serve one minute behind bars.
Hi Connie,
Oh I hope you are wrong. I can;t imagine why the secrets he has are more dangerous in prison than out. He can be kept in solitary confinement if natural security is at stake. He could call Putin or bin Salman any time if free to blab more. He couldn't from prison. What do you think?
As Lynn stated above: If convicted, Trump MUST spend time behind bars. Lynn didn't say it, but I also believe that if he's convicted under the Espionage Act he should lose all access to the internet and should have all his phone calls monitored while he serves his sentence behind bars. In addition, a conviction of crimes covered by the Espionage Act should result in loss of Secret Service protections, his government pension, his medical care (other than what's available to other inmates) and any other financial rewards related to his term as President. Additionally, he should not have an official portrait hanging in the Capital or the White House, and he should not be given a State funeral when he dies, either in prison or out. In short, he should be treated like any other citizen convicted under the provisions of the Espionage Act. If so convicted, he becomes a traitor to the country in my opinion.
Best case scenario a tether in one of his gold-plated hell holes.
Secret service protection helps protect us from his further divulging our secrets. Do not loose this leash.
Steve may not. But I seriously doubt he will. Best case scenario, life tethered to one of his gold-plated hell holes.
"Please Bre'r fox don't throw me in the briar patch."
Thank you for expressing my thoughts so well. I have lost hope in America, which is heartbreaking.
Would be interested in knowing how Obama crushed your expectations.
I'm hopeful but scared. I don't like this judge, and I know how much the neo-confederates are itching for a Civil War.
I trust Jack Smith.
Jack Smith has a strategy. You can bet he's also researched Cannon seven ways to heaven. Someone called him a bulldog. He's tried worse criminals that trump at the Hague. He always wins. There is also Jay Bratt who is Chief of the Counterintelligence and Export Control Section, The National Security Division, U.S. Department of Justice. Both of them play to win. The statistics show it.
He doesn't ALWAYS win and has been reversed twice on appeal. Do I think he's Is incredibly good? Absolutely! But just wanted to set the record straight.
Remember: we had a lot of hope in the Mueller investigation too. Trump is the AntiChrist and has slithered his way out of every possible punishment for his foul misdeeds. He’s a festering cancer on this nation and continues to metastasize through nearly every member of the GOP. I feel very uneasy about the next year.
I remember when we voted in 2016 and how he won against incredible odds. Many didn't take him seriously and didn't vote because it was between 2 evils as they said. Many didn't vote because they looked at the polls and they saw that Hillary was ahead.
Mueller had his hands tied from the beginning. Rosenberg and Barr quashed it and they would have been the ones to agree and permit any indictments that were to be recommended.
This is different. Merrick Garland has hired someone who was a prosecutor for the Hague. You have to be the creme da le creme. He also has not said anything giving away where the investigations are. This surprised me because I didn't expect this so soon. I realize now where he's going. This indictment is the easier than J6. For evidence in indicting trump with sedition, treason, conspiracy is going to have to be air tight before any indictments. Also he is smart to leave J6 indictments until more of the terrorists are indicted and found guilty because he can then use those verdicts to trump plus others. It's set a precedent. They are also several other crimes that are being investigated. So this is the beginning.
As a historical theologian I. must question if he's the Anti-christ. I think the anti-christ would be much smarter, nimble and handsome. If you meant it metaphorically I am OK with it.
Smith is one person, however competent. The judge has substantial power. I hope you are right.
I am kind of at a state that we return to a form of barbarism. Let’s turn Fake45 upside down until he either cries “uncle” or the fluids from his body run out of his nose or mouth. He has been able to slickly slide through so many situations. He hugs the American flag like it’s one of his mistresses but really, he loves the greed, the grift. I want him imprisoned for life. If he is allowed to stay at Mar-a-Lago, he should be confined to two rooms, his bedroom and the notorious bathroom, meals served there, all monies made at his clubs to be given to the government and to people he’s hurt...us! He is to be isolated from any friends or patrons, not allowed to use texting nor Truth Social or Twitter. Give him an old-fashioned typewriter. Reduce him to nothing, assets and all. Let him whine and wither away. Yes, I had thought long and hard about this. He caused havoc and chaos. He must pay for his crimes.
Frankly, I like the idea of having him at Guantánamo
Ditto, wrote the same in a complaint filed to DOJ on J6, plenty of room for all of the Seditious Conspirators. I have read that there is a particularly nasty wing which would be ideal for this POS. They could have the boat parades he loves on visiting day, very accommodating, for all concerned.
I was thinking someplace with wicked winters, where he could shovel snow. Give him something real to whine about.
I heard on the amicus podcast that it may end up being some kind of “home confinement” type of situation...which will suck. He needs real jail time.
It would be a tragedy on top of tragedies. There is no way to dodge this issue... either the laws apply to everyone or we are not a nation of laws. THIS is this generations time to take a stand. IF CONVICTED HE MUST SERVE PRISON TIME. Anything less and we are lost.
Yes!! All by himself - with the guards being the people he hurt the most.
I’d like to see this fascist traitor get the Mussolini treatment. M also being a fascist traitor.
I like it alot.
As John Adams stated we are “a government of laws, and not of men.” It seems quite evident that the former President, Donald J. Trump, broke a number of laws and if found guilty should be penalized just like any other citizen. I pray the country as a whole will see the gravity of these multiple charges and that justice will be served fully and as swiftly as possible.
Thank you for quoting John Adams.
Just the man we need to turn to right now.
Does it sound a bit like a dime-store novel that the judge who can blow the case out of the water (metaphorically) is named "Cannon?" . . .
She might be assigned only for the arraignment. And she may have been chastened by the "conservative" 5th Circuit. But how can our country be so fragile?
And the euphemistically called "right" wing went "ballistic" when seeing Chinese balloons. But they are totally fine with exposing nuclear secrets to anyone who wanders into the Spanish-style pool and tennis club called Mara Lago*
*Note: a "Mara Lago" is [fittingly] a "long-legged long-eared rodent (Dolichotis magellanica) closely related to the cavies and widely distributed in southern South America." cf Merriam-Webster Dict.
Good point re Chinese balloons.
I call her Loose Cannon.
My perception is that the U.S. justice system is not working well. Rich people get away with stuff all the time while the poor get pounded with the full force of the law for the slightest infraction.
This is correct. Rich people can drown the system in delaying tactics, while the less well-off have to take plea bargains. Trump may eventually get convicted, since the case looks very strong and his behavior was so egregious, but it will take years and he may well die first. He’ll never do time. The absolute worst possible outcome (from his perspective) is home detention with a leg bracelet.
From my part I like the part that says he dies first - but that is up to Mother Nature - not nice trying to fool her she and karma will take him down eventually...
Yes. This. We live in a Caste system.
I am following with interest. Not so much to see the antics of TFG, but to see if the Republicans can come to their senses regarding him.
It’s going to be a long wait. There are more republican idiots in Congress than ever. They’re
getting paid to pretend what the anti-government
whiners believe is real. They sabotage every attempt
to help ordinary people and keep shoveling money
to the wealthy. Their latest budget maneuvers are
evidence of it. The “freedom caucus” was prepared to destroy our economy over Dem attempts to make sure people can afford healthcare, seniors & children have enough to eat, etc. The purpose of government
is to defend against hostile enemies and make sure the people have what they need to survive--not to
ignore average Americans.
I think you are right.
Addendum: I said there are more idiots in Congress than ever. But they aren’t idiots. They are people who think it’s in their best interests as members of Congress to pretend the U.S., is a certain way--a way most people in the U.S. don’t agree with.
What these people in Congress pretend, among other things & as far as I can tell, is that our government is a sham. It was supposedly a sham before Donald Trump was “president,” and it’s supposedly a sham again after his “presidency.” I think they believe, or pretend to believe, our government exists for a relatively small, “elite” group of people. While that may be true on some level, it isn’t true on all levels.
The angry crowd who wants to “burn it all down,” (even metaphorically)couldn’t be more wrong. All that would accomplish is to terrify innocent people and children who don’t deserve to have their world fall apart around them (which is exactly what’s happening to the people of Ukraine.)
Speaking of Ukraine, every time there’s violence in
our country, whether it’s mass shootings, organized violence for political reasons or lone wolf violence
motivated by politics, there are two people who celebrate it more than any others--Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. Vlad & Don both want, facilitate and manipulate Americans to be violent because
violence furthers their goals--not your goals or our goals, THEIR goals. They are partners in their desire
to loot America and the republicans in Congress I
described above have either been manipulated into
helping them or they help because they believe they
will gain from it. Either way it’s the voters who will win lose.
Large scale violence creates chaos, chaos creates
instability, chaos and instability create cover for
people inclined to steal, loot & murder. It also creates uncertainty that affects the financial markets and the economy negatively. People who
are stable, love their family and care about their friends and neighbors don’t want a wrecked economy.
If you think the pretenders in Congress are “on your side,” they aren’t. They acted and talked like they were willing to destroy our economy and blame it on democrats and President Biden to prove a point about the debt. But what they wanted--a certain percentage of spending cuts across the board-- would have thrown millions of people out of work, so how would that have helped our economy?(Members of Congress would still get their paychecks though.)
So, bottom line, violence and extremism don’t help anyone but Donald Trump and Vlad Putin because their intentions aren’t to do the right thing for the
U.S. or us, even though Trump pretends he wants to
help. All he does is tell people what they want to hear and then blame a scapegoat if things go badly.
I don't think he'll ever go to jail, but being barred from holding any public office would be enough for me. Of course, he might be facing other federal and state charges.
I'd like to extend the ban to his children; Don Jr. has political aspirations and we know that the princess had such thoughts early in Trump's tenure.
Being barred from holding any elective office would not be enough for me. He's got an entire grifting family. All of the grifts would still continue. Maybe he would start his own church since so many people seem to think he's the son of God. Nauseating and scary But not impossible. Then he could have a tax exempt way of grifting! Yiikes!
Good points!
Won’t be barred. Only happens after a successful impeachment.
No it's not just in impeachment. 18 U.S. Code § 2071 (b) - Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, wilfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term “office” does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States.
That hasn't been included in on these charges. They could add them later. Or maybe Jack Smith will include sedition and treason on the Jan 6th indictments.
The GOP is dead but they just don't know it. Over 60% of Millennials & GenZ voters say they will never vote for a Republican because: They have been paying attention!
Trump will likely take a plea deal as: Lordy, Lordy -there are tapes
But he will also be indicted in Jan 6th DC case & GA Voting ones so his troubles have just begin
There are no good days left in that miserable traitor's life & I am here for all of them.
I love optimists!
Only in this insane asylum of a country could a criminal indictment be a boost to a political campaign, as will be the case here.
I've read the indictment. What I'm concerned about is finding a jury composed of people who can accept the facts presented to them. All it will take to derail a guilty verdict is one jury member with fealty to trump. I'm also concerned about the judge letting trump pull his usual delay, delay, delay - oops we're in an election.
A grand jury group of his peers who live in Florida were able to do it. So I have hope another well selected jury could do it again. Not everyone in Florida is a Trump fan.
He’s going down, unless he can fluke a dodgy juror.
Even if he wins this case, there’s a second stage indictment coming for the docs, plus J6 indictments, Georgia, NY, and the case of campaign finance fraud identified by the J6 Committee.
Don't forget that the juror pool comes from very red Florida; it will be tough to know if the jurors are really open to evidence or some closeted MAGA adherents.
The failure of our democracy is on us, the people. Arguably, there are many cultural, technological, and sociological reasons for this but in the end it's us that have ceded order for anarchy. When truth becomes a subjective concept, there can longer be any moral center. That is where we are now in America.
The facts - facts being a victim of the degradation of truth - clearly indicate a crime. But crimes need truth to prove. For those of us who haven't lost the concept of truth, this is an open and shut case; but we're so far gone as a nation that facts, truth, and crime and justice are no longer incontrovertible pillars of our society. Thus, it's doubtful that trump will ever spend a minute of penance for these crimes.
"When truth becomes a subjective concept, there can no longer be any moral center." This is how I see it, too. Been saying for a while now - when facts can be "alternative" there is no truth. No honesty. Accountability, hypocrisy and projection don't exist. There is no reasoning with this and compromise is impossible. The rule of law is gone. Democracy itself is in a perilous position. If democracy doesn't prevail, something else will. IMHO
to quote W.B. Yates: "Things fall apart, the center cannot hold, mere anarchy is loosed upon the world. The blood-dimmed tide is loosed and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned. The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity." I never thought I'd see that in my lifetime.
Yes, but this community and many others
are building a center that will hold.
That is our task, our calling, our challenge.
And we are rising to it.
That is why America is not going to fall apart.
We love it too much to be passive bystanders
and allow it to perish.
A favorite and oft quoted poem of mine. Especially apt... And that rough beast..slouching toward bethlehem.... Well I think we've seen him.
I am troubled that many TV pundits and commentators, and Mr. Beschloss, express doubts about Trump's conviction. Why sow such seeds, thoughts? There is a fine line between a fear and a wish, often the same. Would it not be better to express confidence on the American people, and, given the evidence, be surprised if Trump is not convicted.
two reasons: Judge Aileen Cannon, a very red jury pool--different from the jury in NYC.
We have seen the court become more and more greedy and corrupt from the Supremes to the Southern District of Florida with Judge Cannon. Trump led an insurrection. The Republican congress is not helpful. Actually the Republican party has turned into a Maga Soap Opera. People do not read. Perhaps Jack Smith's Insurrection venue will provide some results in time to jail this traitor. But I despair. Has the reach of fascism taken us over? We started as men with slaves and women with no voice. We have a mega rich ruling class, women's rights restricted and a criminal who sells our military secrets to Saudis for golf tournaments. It's somewhat unfounded, I admit... or is it?
While reading the indictment Rex Tillerson, formerly Trump's Energy Secretary, came to mind. Rex told friends that Don was a "moron". Which is obvious to anyone who pays any attention to Trump's mental incapacity. Fans and pundits fail to mention this, when it is plain fact, every time the man opens his mouth. This is beyond narcissism. What sane and average IQ human thinks they can get away with taking and hiding and refusing to return top secret documents? More than poor judgment. This is stupidity, idiocy, irrationality. Please Steven, tell your friends in the media--all sides--to tell the truth about Trump's incapacity to reason. Mentally unfit for any public office.
It's not stupidity, it's a kind of tribalism. MAGAs live in their Limbic Systems so they're driven by feelings, specifically feelings of belonging and acceptance. It's pre-verbal and pre-logic. I don't know if evidence can reach them. If it does, it will have to be presented by a trusted source. They won't listen to any one they define as Leftist. They don't trust the Biden Administration. Trump has convinced them all law enforcement agencies are corrupt. I think he can be convicted. I think between Jack Smith, Alvin Bragg and Fani Willis we can get him to serve at least some jail time. The problem is where to house him. If we don't want more armed attacks, we'd better send him to Guantanamo Bay so there's less chance of his Gravy Seals trying to break him out. I hope enough of them were scared off by the Seditious Conspiracy convictions that they can't mount a large scale attack anywhere. This won't happen, but because he wants to take away the birthright to citizenship for the children of immigrants, I wish he could be stripped of his citizenship and sent into exile. Let him go to Russia or Dubai and never let him come back. Seize all his properties and assets and give the money to the VA & to house homeless veterans. Turn MaraLago into a homeless compound with all the Social Services and care the residents need. Whatever we do, he MUST spend time in jail. That is not negotiable. He's lucky he doesn't get the Rosenberg treatment.
I don’t like this judge either. I watched my local news channel last night. They asked random people on the street what they think. More than half questioned said they still support trump. He’s not above the law. I’m very concerned about the constant drumbeat of violent threats from the right wing nut jobs.
I'm subjected to the MAGAt's daily here, FL really has changed for the worst in just the last 10 years especially. I mean never in the 30 years I've lived here off and on would I have ever anticipated actual Nazis protesting outside Disney World!
I remember Trump saying to someone before he ran for President the first time that if he ran for political office, he would run as a Republican because they were "stupid".
I thought he meant it literally.
Now I believe he meant they were stupid for letting Richard Nixon get caught.
YES, if America still has a system of Justice. NO, if it doesn't. THAT SIMPLE.
I’m just waiting for him to board the next flight to Moscow. Nothing would surprise me at this point.
I wish he would go to Russia.
I would LOVE that if feds could seize all his assets!
If there's anything left to seize, sounds like E Jean Carroll is going to get a lot of it. And he's still shooting off his big mouth.
I suspect he will still have big bucks even after paying her. And I hope fervently that she lives long enough to collect from this shyster.
Glenn Kirschner thinks so. I hope he is right. He is a mortal danger to everything.
The indictment is beyond horrifying. However, there is a long, mine-strewn road between here and conviction. If Aileen Cannon presides over this case, the US is in real trouble. The indictment is step 1. When the shock and (barely repressed) jubilation over Jack Scott’s report... we are left with the reality of what pro-democracy people will be facing.
Btw: what happened to the $2 billion MDS handed over to Jared Kushner, scion of a felon family. No audit trail of where that gift went??
how does a being who is entitled to massive secret service protection go to jail? do the secret service personnel go with?
I heard on the amicus podcast that it could likely end up being some kind of “home-confinement” type situation. Which kind of sucks after all the chaos that monster has set loose in this country .
"Home-confinement" in his mansion/estate with his gilded toilets, his tapestries, servants, and obscene wealth? This would be a punishment? That would be an obscene miscarriage of justice.
Good question and one of the (many) reasons this will never happen.
Trump wasn’t legally elected in the first place. Why that was ignored I have no idea. But I’m thinking it’s possible to use that fact to deny Trump any and all
things associated with being an ex-president ...like a secret service detail and a pension.
In prison he will be surrounded by armed guards. Like all the other convicts.
We live in strange times. I’d like to think he’d be convicted based on the evidence, though I can’t imagine him serving any jail time. But I’m pretty jaded by the amount of people who still worship him to believe it’s a slam dunk. I do fully believe if he takes power again, that after almost 250 years, the Republic is dead.
I would like to know YOUR opinion. Do you think he'll ever see the inside of a jail cell?
Honestly, I don’t assume it, even though he should.
Steve: another question? Trump continually claims that he had a “right” to possess these classified documents under the “Presidential Records Act”? I have read this Act with a lawyer’s perspective and cannot find a single sentence in that Act which would give a former President any authority to retain classified material? Do you agree?
I do believe he will end up in jail.
Most concerning is the general politicization of this by the GOP. Calling this a Biden indictment means they have no respect for the Grand Jury system. Until the remaining coup supporting members of Congress are expelled and held accountable they will continue to attack our system of law. God forbid they regain meaningful majorities and the executive branch. DeSantis has an vision for how he wants to weaponize DOJ and the Ex branch. I fear for the future of our country.
I agree with everything you said, and I also fear our future. Is very sad and troubling times.
He would, obviously, have to be kept outside the general prison population, which is a fitting punishment for TFG who's fragile ego needs constant reinforcement from his adoring "cult members". Lock him up and throw away the key, I say.
I often wonder if we had properly held Reagan, Poppy Bush, and Nixon... (or any one of them really) to proper account for their clearly criminal actions, if we'd have still arrived at the Trump criminal enterprise administration as it played out in our reality.
I don't think this country can survive yet another illustration that the wealthy and political elite reside above the law, while we concurrently have states trying to criminalize abortion and homelessness against the plebs.
Either we are a country of laws, values, and ideals. Or we are not.
Trump is the ultimate litmus test for what we are going forward.
I admit I am an irredeemable cynic. It's too much of a coincidence that Canon got assigned. I have my suspicions that Garland is sandbagging the case because he's a secret MAGAT. Although it seems impossible that anyone could read the indictment and come away thinking orangehead should be exonerated. Nevertheless it's too fantastic.
I had the same thought when I heard Cannon was the judge. There’s no way that’s a random occurance.
They say that Cannon was one of 7 possible judges assigned to the Trump case and that the selection was, indeed, random. An unlucky pick!
I hadn’t thought of Gitmo as a depository for Trump until I saw Sharon’s comment..It is the ideal place for him..I believe he can be convinced as long as the trial does not become a circus and the jury is instructed properly and takes their responsibility seriously..
Regarding this Judge..Considering the ass kicking Aileen Cannon got from the 11th Circuit the last time she passed this way every word she speaks, every ruling she makes will be scrutinized..I would not be surprised if the 11th Circuit has their own people present in the courtroom should she end up hearing this matter at all..She is in a career killing position should she fuck any of it up..Her best move would be to find a way to gracefully recuse..
However, to Alexis’ point, DOJ will likely have a person in court who’s only job will be to focus on Cannon’s every move..
And should this end with a conviction, he should be shuttled right down to Gitmo to be held until sentencing..Personally, at arraignment I would remand him without bond in Gitmo pending trial..But that will never happen..
I just don't understand why our laws allow him to run for president after being impeached twice and indicted twice. What is wrong with us? Why are we held hostage to this criminal? Is there a way to stop him?
They should ask/demand that the judge recuse. She has a track record demonstrating her bias for Trump. As an attorney who’s spent a lot of time in court I know I can’t take her seriously. I would expect her to screw things up and endlessly delay the proceedings every possible way she can on Trump’s behalf. It’s common knowledge that Trump will try to delay
everything. It’s his modus operandi. The American people have suffered enough from this poser. He wasn’t legally elected in the first place.
Trump took the documents
Trump lied about the documents
Trump hid the documents (not very well either)
Trump ignored pleas from National Archives to return documents
Trump had to respond to a subpoena in order for FBI to search
Trump moved documents in order to conceal
Trump tried to deflect
Trump lies on a daily basis
Trump will be found guilty. Trump will go to prison.
I trust Jack Smith. Regardless of any maneuvers and delays, there is overwhelming and self incriminating evidence to his guilt. And there is NO DEFENSE. None.
The Grand Jury made up of south Florida folks brought the indictment. Another trial jury of south Florida folks can weigh the evidence and make a decision.
"This is the way" (Mandalorian trope).
Because of the various levels of classification and military related documents retrieved, couldn't this have been assigned to the jurisdiction of military tribunal? It doesn't make sense to have regular citizens be jurors on a trial where there is evidence they do not have clearance to view. I also like that there are no appeals, in the military tribunal process, why not trump his SOP ?
Trump is not in the military...despite being the so-called Commander in Chief during his 4 years in the White House
I read that civilians are eligible when national security concerns are involved.
Not sure if this link will work correctly but this is the reference.
https://guides.ll.georgetown.edu/c.php?g=365986&p=5204253
I fear that what is known and aspired to as “the rule of law” (indeed if it ever existed for the privileged) - is at best in recovery from the blow it took under the evil simpleton. Watching and hoping it recovers, if only for the sake of our children.
His legal experience is a lifetime of civil cases. Stalling and bravado is somewhat effective against a plaintiff. This is a criminal case, a different world. Also, he is up against a brilliant prosecutor. I cannot help placing my faith in the normal people who will make up the jury.
Trump has taken to his usual fire-and-brimstone bluster, verbally attacking everyone involved in the investigations, and staunchly claiming that he has done nothing wrong. I purpose that he has committed wrong-doing all his life; that is his MO. Trump's cavalier attitude towards the indictment, is further proof of his void of litigious knowledge. His valet, Walt Nauta, also named in the indictment, played a hands-on insider role, that will be crucial to the proceedings. 38 felony charges including violation of The Espionage Act is a ticket to incarceration. While Trump erroneously believes he is exempt from accountability, the prosecutorial 'gravity' of these serious charges, will virtually consume him. Two members of Trump's legal team have resigned , and more may follow. America's grand deceiver is mired in a vat of his own ill-repute and criminality, from which there is no escape.
The Rule of Law has been proven to me to mean the rule of the wealthy elite to rule over the rest of us. Congress has been captured and is run by ignorant loons made wealthy by the oligarchs. Dishonest Thomas remains on the “Extreme Court.” (YES, we had one measly win with Alabama this past week, but look what they have done and how Thomas remains unscathed for all his Crowing.)
The evil that seeps from every pore of the Trumps and Kushner has been rewarded and these indictments have not changed the minds of the GOP. My optimism about America has been shred into a thousand tiny shards.
While you have engaged us in discussions about Jack Smith in previous writing, Steven, there was a measure of doubt, as to his ability, to secure the conviction of Donald Trump. I chimed in that we had to trust in his abilities. We have been metaphorically champing at the bit, with a mixture of anticipation and trepidation as the investigative appeared to be moving slowly. However, with the unsealing of the indictment listing 37 violations, ,it is clear to me that Smith applied the utmost due diligence, in his investigation. Pictures of Bankers boxes and files in disarray, were found in various unsecured rooms, and even in a Bathroom. Trump's absolute disregard for the security of classified information is appalling. His fealty to the likes of Putin, Kim Jon Un and MBS is well-established, and I believe they may continue to be in contact with one another. There is every reason to believe that confidential information could, and probably was, shared with America's adversaries. I predicted long before Trump's departure from DC, that they should inventory the White House heirlooms, works of art and even the silverware. Nothing is sacred to 'individual 1'; NOTHING. Trump is a high-flying grifter extraordinaire. Everything he has ever done throughout his life, including his tenure in the White House, was for the sole benefit of himself, and family members. I watched excerpts of his campaign speech in NC, wherein he categorically denied any wrongdoing, mocked the charges, and flagged his usual lament that this was a prosecutorial 'witch hunt'. He has never feared consequences. He barrelled over every governmental protocol and procedure while holding Office, with hardly a whimper from the GOP, and he continues his tirade on the political campaign, with the same brutish gusto today. Alarming is not an adequate word to describe Trump's willingness to cavalierly put his country and citizens in grave danger. His evil knows no bounds and his ill-repute is characteristic of autocrats and medieval invaders. Except, in this case, Donald Trump has been methodically on a path to destroy America.
We must proceed with caution. The world is watching. Our laws mean nothing if Donald Trump is allowed to have stolen top secret documents, defy a subpoena, put the national security of our country and others at risk, lie, and more without being held accountable. The evidence is beyond damning. We have much work to do to change our political climate and rein in corruption. I often harken back to 2015. Trump declared his candidacy and people said, “Give him a chance. How much harm could he do?” Look at us! Now the question is can we fix what he broke?
There must be a moment, when he must pay for the crimes he has committed, like everybody else!
He had his chances, and there must be a time, when things are just no longer about him!
If there is any “opposition” to his imprisonment, then only, because it opens the door for an easy follow, for everybody else below him!
Understandable, but every Criminal should pay for crimes they have committed!
Trump became and will continue to be a danger to Society, to our children’s future, and to our World! Understand the differences between lying and cheating, or Treason, High Treason, whatever the case!
We don’t know yet!
There is the threat of upheaval of all kind, we have already been there, but now, let’s take our chance, law and order must prevail to restore our fragile Democracy!
Beware, we are only at the very beginning of this whole Trump saga, surrounded by many who only wish us, I'll will of all kind!
Aileen Cannon's appointment is a nightmare flashback for me. Not again!? He seemed lined up to be held partially accountable, then the cavalry shows up. Please say it isn't so.
I can't imagine a scenario where he isn't sentenced to federal prison. He cooked his own goose.
I absolutely believe he SHOULD be found guilty. If he does go to prison- as he SHOULD, he would most certainly have to be put somewhere that keeps him out of the general population. He may have a LOT of fans in prison as well.
What truly scares the hell out of me for this is what happens if he somehow gets elected. I worry there may be a way the other politicians will find to put him in charge of these kind of state secrets again. What would he do with them this time? What has he already sold to our adversaries? What deals has he made with Russia already? With Saudi Arabia? With the Taliban? What will happen if he does go to prison? Will people try to get him out.
More than anything what kind of place are we going to leave for our children or grandchildren? What happens to their lives? I fear for their future....
Possible conviction complication seen by MSNBC's Ari Melber: Judge Aileen Cannon presides but delays and delays. Trump gets himself nominated, then elected. Right after inauguratiohe guts DoJ and his cases g et tossed66⁵ out.
If Trump is not convicted, it may be the end of the rule of law in America. If not convicted, what will future leaders do? Doesn't make any difference who they are or what their politics are, they will not feel obligated to follow the rules, especially the ethics and morals that go along with the rule of law. We are country of laws, not men, and the lack of a conviction would damage that greatly.
As to his incarceration, I personally feel, especially after reading this indictment, how the court does not incarcerate him if convicted, and how can he not be convicted? How can Trump prepare an effective defense against these charges and the evidence, just based on what we have seen? Don't you think Smith has much more that he hasn't shown? I am sure Trump will continue to rely on more lying and deception, and there are those who have done much less over the past two hundred years than Trump who have been branded traitors, which he is, no doubt, especially after combining these indictments with those coming from the January 6 investigation. He must go down. His so called empire must be totally destroyed, and his minions must be treated in the same manner ASAP. Maybe we should bring back firing squads, only after due process, of course. Wouldn't that send a message?
There is no escaping the fact that Trump has been blasphemously equated to Jesus by both overt and secretive Christian Nationalists. Trump will use this every way possible to escape prison as will all but a few Republicans of good conscience. Power supersedes all morality, ethics, and decency in the GOP. Cult leaders and zealots require no less action than that exerted by the United States against the Confederate treason.
RESOLVE must guide us every step going forward.
Unless he dies first -- and his health can’t be good -- I believe he will be convicted.