It still boggles the mind. Over the course of the Trump presidency, The Washington Postchronicled over 30,000 lies—30,573 to be exact. That is an average of about 21 a day. And as those four years unfolded, the “false claims” became more frequent: An average of six a day in the first year, 16 a day in the second, 22 a day in the third and 39 in the last year. Note that in the first 100 days he was in the White House, the Post catalogued 492. Yet by November 2, 2020, that single day before the 2020 election, they counted 503 “false or misleading claims.”
America was drowning in this cesspool of lies, yet somehow remained afloat. While the lies convinced millions to fear or hate refugees or scapegoat people different from themselves—and later believe that their preferred candidate who lost the election really won it and still later claim that the violent January 6 Capitol attack was really a peaceful tourist visit—Americans and America could still agree on some basic facts of life.
Imagine if our fellow citizens thoroughly rejected the rule that a red light means stop, that we drive on the right side of the road or that we should exit a building from the ground floor only, not a third floor window (or higher). On the other hand, so many thousands of families are still suffering the consequences of deceased family members who refused to believe that wearing a mask or taking the vaccine for the coronavirus could save their lives.
I had a childhood friend who loved to concoct tall tales. He swore, for example, that there was a kid in first grade who was so fat that he couldn’t walk and the school’s principal let him drive a tractor through the halls to get to class. I knew his stories were pretty ridiculous, but I was impressed by his imagination. We all live in world where white lies—harmless comments usually meant to avoid hurting someone’s feelings—are an accepted practice: “That hat looks great!” “Sorry, I’m late: Bad traffic!” “It’s OK you missed our meeting.”
But the compulsive drumbeat of a pathological liar is something else—a danger not only in the specifics (no, Mexico is not “sending” its rapists and criminals), but in the ways that it can and has untethered so many people from factual reality and society’s need for shared facts to function effectively. In the election interference/hush money trial yesterday, we learned that in the wake of the “Access Hollywood” tape Trump aide (and now witness) Hope Hicks urged her colleagues to “deny, deny, deny” to defend her boss’ involvement—until that lie became unsustainable. That may be dismissed as a campaign tactic for a struggling candidate—until it is recognized as part of a larger pattern of illegality that includes falsifying business records to ensure the voting public doesn’t know the truth.
But beyond the outcome of this particular trial or any of the other criminal trials and felony charges that envelop criminal defendant Trump, I think it’s useful to consider whether the insidious nature of compulsive lying perpetrated by one of the most famous people in the world has caused long-term consequences. Court proceedings can clarify what is true and what is false—who is guilty of a crime and who is innocent—but the believers of the lies and the liar may never accept a court’s verdict or the actual outcome of an election. If a sizable portion of our country has abandoned facts to side with the narrative of their tribe and whatever their leader says, how long will our democracy remain afloat?
What do you think? How much lying can America tolerate? Have we already passed a threshold that makes shared understanding of basic rules increasingly impossible? Has this climate of lies metastasized such that long after its chief practitioner is gone it will still be poisoning our body politic? And what about in your own life: Do you tolerate people who lie?
As always, I look forward to reading your observations and for the opportunity of this thoughtful community to learn from each other. I think it really is one of the very best things about America, America. Please do be respectful in your remarks. Trolling will not be tolerated.
Please consider becoming a paid subscriber for $50 a year or just $5 a month, if you’re not already. This helps sustain and expand the work of America, America, keep nearly all the content free for everyone and give you full access to the comments sections.
I don’t tolerate lying in my circle, but is amazing the people that don’t want to know the truth. I’m labeled the difficult one because I won’t be ‘convinced’ by their version. I’m the stubborn sibling of six that won’t just go along. Lonely feeling growing up, but now the truth is so obvious, I’m proud to stand alone with the truth supporting me. And, for people like you. Thanks 🦕
Absolutely! I was always the "difficult" one; "why can't you just get along?" But the truth seemed so obvious to me. My parents, both raging alcoholics, would spin, obfuscate, and dissemble when confronted with their actions and words and the results of such, and I became a master at pointing out their inconsistencies, their self-aggrandising statements, and their arrogant assumption that all they said was gospel. I too spent a long life alone but for a few close friends, labeled an "uppity" woman by men who didn't like my independence of thought, and yet I am still satisfied with my reliance on facts and the truth. You are not alone and reading your words helped me realize that neither am I. Small consolation, but gratifying nonetheless.
You're not alone, Lauri. Your story is my story. The worst thing about living that kind of life is that you learn not to trust, so when you do, it's the wrong people. I had close friends only a few times in my life, and I married a man I never trusted because not trusting was normal for me.
That's me the difficult one always ruining family event. I finally stopped going. I set boundaries. They can have my kids but not get the chance to demean me in their presence. 🫶🏼🤗
Interesting you bring this up — if anything, rather than inured to his lies, I’ve become ever closer to the boiling point of late. The public is not permitted to see and hear what goes on live in the courtroom, and yet his insanely outrageous pronouncements outside the courtroom are free to fly out into the airwaves and take root in the gullible minds of his supporters, or those unfamiliar with the law. Why doesn’t the media correct this dangerous rant as it happens, or honestly report that “Mr. Trump just said such and such, which is not true”? The judge may have admonished Mr. Trump for untruthfully announcing that the “gag order” prevents him from testifying, but who among his followers heard that? How many understand how he’s perverted the meaning of 1st Amendment rights, or that it matters? His maliciousness is effective because we let it be so.
This is interesting. Are you referring to Trump's statement(s) that the gag order imposed on him by the judge prevents him from testifying in his trial?
If so, are you saying that the former president of the USA, someone who often claims to know more about any topic than anyone else, was not aware of his right to testify on his own behalf? And do you believe that?
And I am aware that he silently acknowledged in court the judge's correction of his "ignorance", but I haven't seen, and cannot imagine, him publicly admitting such a mistake or ignorance. That must have been epic!
Recently I heard that he does know many things that he touts as lies. In this case his lawyers most certainly laid out what the gag order entailed . However if it doesn’t fit his pity poor me narrative he continues to say what he wants. What has to happen is plain mockery on a large scale by the media. I am sorry it doesn’t sound very professional but believe me it can be done with such decorum that it will have the needed effect. Call him out as an uninformed stupid man that doesn’t even know the basic law. Stop placating him and defending his lies and play acting.
What he wants is his fans to riot in the streets. He tried claiming the police had blocked access for them to protest and that was proved a lie. He felt the need to explain why they aren’t showing up so he told a baldfaced lie and now he is lying about not being allowed to “testify” when what h’s trying to do is avoid taking an oath to not lie and so his only alternative is to come out and claim they won’t let him testify when he has no intention whatsoever of testifying under oath.
He is not ignorant of the rules. Mob lawyer Roy Cohn mentored Trump ten years on how to commit fraud and avoid jail. He knows exactly what his limits are and anyone who thinks otherwise is one of his suckers.
You can't "see" him in the court to say he acknowledge the judge. You can't see him in court to say, "He looked at his lawyer funny." You can't see ANYTHING that goes on in court so how did you "See? and "hear" what trump said in court? This should be interesting. . .
Do any of you understand the nature of this disorder he has? It’s called Malignant Narcissism. It’s a combination of narcissism and sociopathy. To such a person objective truth does not exist? Is this statement supposed fact going to benefit me? If yes, the statement is indeed a fact. Is this statement going to be bad for me snd my views? It is simply false.
This is also their barometer of right and wrong. To tell the truth I can’t count how many people I’ve known who decide truth or falsehood in this way. They’re literally everywhere and diehard Democrats lie just as much as Republicans when it comes to politics.
You are no longer an objective actor when you live like this. You are an ideologue. All of theories are in fact true by default. If the facts don’t match the predictions of your theories or your hypotheses, then the facts themselves are wrong and must be changed into “alternative facts.”
I work in a social science and let me tell you, the number of people in my field who are ideologues is very high. Many of the papers published in my field are obviously false, yet everyone believes them anyway. If you go against them you will be bullied and ridiculed and can even be denied jobs or tenure.
All this time these ideologues cloak themselves in the mantra of pure empiricism. Those of us who insist on truths that violate core consensus in my field are called cranks, kooks, idiots, and fools.
So you see even science itself is contaminated with ideology snd ideologues.
Robert: just one note. Yes, Trump is a malignant narcissist. He is also now obviously suffering from advancing dementia. It’s been called out by neuroscientists and psychologists. Even I can recognize the symptoms: word salad, tangential thinking, inability to complete a sentence (or sometimes even a word), mixing up time periods and people. Even his walk has been noted as symptomatic of brain damage (eg dementia). Unless he is reading the teleprompter, he makes no sense. So at some point (future or past?) he may actually not know if he is lying. Confabulation is just another symptom.
I personally don’t see anything but normal aging with Biden. He still deals with a lifelong stuttering problem which can make him sound a little like he’s slurring. He forgets a name or mixes up a name but less than I do and I’m nearly ten years younger than Biden (LOL).
I’m 66 and names are just murder for me. I can remember most anything else, but names just kill me dead.
So that’s the slurring! I thought it was some aging or dementia thing, and it really worried me.
I think a lot of us stutter just a bit. In fact mild stutters, like mild versions of many things, strike me as simply normal. I watch a lot of podcasts, and a lot of hosts have mild stutters. You go interview people in the street, and many of them have slight stutters.
Fully fluent speech doesn’t seem to be the norm in people.
I believe I even have one myself. No one’s ever mentioned it except for one asshole ages ago, but he was an excessively demanding person as far as others went. He expected so much of people that he was an asshole! You can’t demand too much of people.
I mentioned in my reply to the column which is further down the line, a number of famous lies told & also about a coworker. Yes, I know what he is and why such people act this way.
I stated 2 truthful facts, they were not meant to lead to the discussion that followed.Some are so closed off in their minds that they need to make more of a statement than what exists . They, instead, see alternate facts. Only one responder left proof of my statements. One even responded to proof with "Bull." So, people on 2 sides suffer from the same stubborn mindsets. Sad.
You stated he was not aware, which is false. He was made aware by the judge and his lawyers more than once. If you did not mean to have responses to your statement that Trump was somehow unaware of the meaning of the gag order then you should have gone back to the transcript to make sure he had not conned you as well as his cult followers. So I say again: Bull.
As I get older, I find I tolerate less and less nonsense. I’ve never been able to tolerate a liar and as I get older I have a hair trigger tolerance to liars. These are the people you cut out of your life. Things will never change. They will never ever believe the truth because lies can be much more palatable. I really thought we were a lot smarter in America….and then came 2016
And finding out that it was the biggest publication of lies in our country that turned people away from a decent woman who could have run the country well, towards... THAT. It's nearly unbearable.
Carlye, let’s not forget she DID win the popular vote!!! TFFG has NEVER won more votes than his opponent—it’s only our electoral system that gave him the the presidency….minority rule.
You're absolutely right. My point was it would never have been that close had the Orange Malignancy not cheated. The electoral college needs to go, the filibuster needs to go (both of those were installed by Republikkkans to keep the African American vote from counting).
We HAVE to take all three branches, because unless we fix the Extreme Court, we'll lose every bit of progress we've made in the past fifty years. We can't have the Immoral Minority overpowering the ACTUAL majority!
Don’t you blame some of that on Comey and his email BS he brought up again like a week before the election? I think he did a lot of harm and pushed enough people to TFG
It is past the time for the media's Fairness Doctrine to be updated and reinstated! Reagan's administration thought it was an unnecessary set of rules and regulations; shortly after its demise, along came the likes of Rush Limbaugh, et al, followed by Fox News. We here are living with the impact of that disregard of the need for truth in our news media.
Reagan was an evil bastard, and he knew what he was doing. I'm not sure he foresaw the fall of democracy, but he knew exactly what he was releasing.
Democrats have always been more principled, more aware of and concerned with the welfare of other people. Reagan was a sociopath, he just wasn't the blatantly narcissistic bastard that tRump is, and he was even scarier because he had people thinking that he was a kind old man.
And for that? I loathe Nancy and her paranormal psychic that help Nancy run the country for her "beloved Ronnie." BARF. She got pregnant out of wedlock and then went around so prim and proper. UGH!
When judging the influences of current lying in political circles (adding touches to an already broad-stroked portrait of core deep mendacity) one should not forget that advertising and lobbyists (front door pimps for corporations) have, with sing-song cadence, made lying the main staple of their appealing to the gullible with ready cash. Finding truth in corporation operations is like looking in the bushes for little birds called snipes.
Toward the end, definitely. But during the first few years, he was perfectly lucid and absolutely awful. People covered for him, and he had previously appointed old white men whose points of view were completely in line with his own.
As I've said elsewhere, it's not just tRump I'm worried about. No one can control him. But no one's even watching the behind-the-scenes people, his handlers, the ones who are actually steering him right now. I read pretty obsessively and as far as I can tell, nobody even knows who that is.
Lee Atwater worked in his WH. Atwater did an interview later on how the GOP had to adapt the Southern Strategy to changing voter attitudes. How the policies would hurt blacks the most, attract voters without overt racist language and on the surface appear to be what we might call ‘race neutral.
“Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.…”
The clip is in the large image. Down further is a little grey box with the sound from the full interview.
I read a transcript of the interview and, honestly, it spurred my ptsd from that horrifying era. Even as a young child I couldn't understand that attitude, and thank all the gods, my mother supported my egalitarian views!
Are you aware that no foreign citizen can own a USA media corporation, like ABC New, or CNN? Well, Good old Ronnie RAYGUN was. And guess how we got Faux Gnus? He gave Rupert Murdoch instant USA citizenship so Murdoch could form Faux Gnus. I have loathed "St. Ronnie" since before 1980 and I do so even more now as his hatred for the government and dismantling it took place all the while he sucked at the teat of American Taxpayer money for the war years as he produced WWII propaganda, California Governor, Sat in the oval office and had his retirement and dementia all supported by the USA Taxpayer. Loathe the man and Nancy.
Embellishing a story to make it more interesting, or appealing, is different than the firehose of absolute BS that we've been subjected to this past decade. Starting with Facebook/Cambridge Analytica in approximately 2013 and the escalator ride downward spiral of our Democracy since 2017 when the alternate facts people corruptly took power, topped with Muskrat f'ing twit in '22. Social media is a megaphone used to spread lies and a definite culprit in the decline of polite society, IMO.
I deleted the app in Nov '22 and I make an effort to not clink links to the site that others post (even though I'd love to see some of the cute animal content I look to see if I can find on YouTube instead) X gets no clicks from me.
The lying that has the most impact comes from Republicans in general, the idea that America is broken, struggling, losing our world status - and that is all crap. Look, we have issues with the people we are electing almost across the board, irrespective of party, and the dark money is horrifying. But the general narrative leads people to think we are beyond repair, the ”system” doesn't work, and that major changes are needed (a president with more authority than ever).
The answer i see is that many folks will tolerate any amount of lying if they like the lie and its author. We should be wary of those who always support their team and don’t criticize it for lying in the hope their team prevails. They are not interested in truth, facts or character while the amount of lying becomes immaterial.
Do you remember Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, the outrageous things he used to say. How his followers thought he was just making fun of convention to get people's attention. A way of thumbing his nose at small thinkers. Well, here we are again. A man who thinks himself a genius, proving to himself how stupid others are by lying and people believe him. AND, everyone is giving him unlimited attention. While behind the scene, people who benefit by the chaos are doing their skullduggery, normalizing fascism, enacting plans to end democracy.
I sincerely appreciate that you and a number of others can articulate what needs to be said in clear understandable terms.
We appreciate your guidance, leadership, and skills in conveying these ideals.
I have found myself being a bit braver articulating that In my generation words like, "Truth, Mom, Apple Pie, and Superman" were used to convey ideals of the American spirit and invention. Superman, for instance, debuted in 1938, and the specific phrase gained popularity in the 1950s.
The concept of "good things" in American culture has evolved over time. While the ideals mentioned above remain important, issues like social justice and equality have become more prominent in recent decades. And these prominent ideals are the very things that the Trump, Putin, white supremacy, far Christian reich are threatening.
Intention matters to me. If you have it in you, lie to my face that I’m a nice and smart guy and even my sarcasm and patronizing is cool. (Just yesterday a commenter said I was insulting and patronizing and it made me almost cry. The truth was not what I wanted to read. ).
I don’t respect people who lie to me. But I also have little respect for people who know they are being lied to but deny that is the case because they don’t want to be wrong either. So Trump may be lying to them but they are going to vote for him anyway because he’s not a Democrat. It’s madness, Steven.
Americans have always tolerated a level of lying, especially by their leaders, who were, and are, lying because they feel that is their way to power. In the past, Americans in great numbers followed the Clan, Governor Wallace in Alabama, even FDR, who if you study his presidency, he lied a lot for the "good of the people," which at the time was probably the best to save the country, although he still usually followed the rule of law in what he did - just twisted it a bit, as many Presidents have in the past. So, lying isn't new, but lying to the extent that it is pathological and un-American (over 30K proven lies in four years) is what is so different and often above and beyond the law.
I do not feel we have gone beyond some threshold where the truth doesn't matter. As an optimist, I see signs everywhere as many evangelicals are beginning to wake to the question - WWJD - What Would Jesus Do. The lying, the wanton adultery, the self-gratification of this orange Buffon is becoming so obvious, which we all knew would begin to happen when the truth is forced out in criminal trials. To quote an often used metaphor - "the emperor has no clothes." I read about the young people in disarray (this isn't new, is it?), and the fear they will not support Biden. I didn't vote for Biden in the 2020 primary, don't really care for him personally, but would I vote for Trump - ever? Of course not, and neither will any person who is not so buried in Fox News which is much like their fearless leader - liars, which hopefully will be taken down after the election as a traitorous organization that itself is built almost totally on lies and propaganda.
I may be wrong, but I sense that this election will not be close. I believe there will be violence perpetrated by MAGAs, especially if it is obvious they have lost, but they will be easily controlled, unfortunately with blood flowing to a certain extent, but nowhere near being successful. The Congress will be back in the hands of Democrats and "sane" Republicans and generally more sane people who will begin to right the ship and move us all into a new era. I am an optimist, but I do not believe I am a Pollyanna.
I hope and yet fear you are right: right about the sanity righting the ship and fear about the bloodshed, though I think it may have to come to that to wake some of these brainwashed zombies to reality. After all, this country has gone through violent paroxysms that were not wars to elicit change many times, from unionizing strike violence in Homestead and Haymarket and Ludlow, to the Civil Rights marches, Vietnam War protests and Kent State, Rodney King riots in LA, and the Black Lives Matter movement which is still getting backlash from these "christian" white supremacists. It takes work from all of us to strengthen our institutions by being informed voters and making sure we inform those who are too apathetic to see the deranged elephant charging at us. Keep talking about that Time magazine interview and Project 2025, make sure you vote not only in every election but COMEPLETELY down the ballot.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I don't think it'll be close in November, and I do think that most sane people will vote for anyone besides tRump.
I also think that his "base" is shrinking, because he's screwed so many in the party. At some point, they have to admit that they got it wrong, otherwise they won't have a party left.
I'm quite sure that eventually, they'll find someone reasonable, and tRump will be what Reagan is now: a footnote, "what great things he did for us!" and nothing more.
I’m always amazed and disgusted that people over the age of 40 don’t remember the 90’s when Fox appeared on the scene and Intentionally and methodically corrupted the idea and traditions of news. Rupert Murdoch is the major cause of this craziness. After the movie Outfoxed - the whistle blowing documentary on Fox - they just kept going and voila! 20 years later and on, they are suddenly more than main stream. It’s not just lies and the disconnect from facts and reality. It’s the insanity of not being able to discern spin and opinion from actual events and reporting. I think the foundations of public confusion and stupidity about lying stems from this origin of blurring the concept of news, information and reporting. We all saw it coming but we somehow couldn’t limit this influence and pervasiveness of Fox. Now how do we ‘fix’ this?!?! It’s a daunting enterprise and more complex with AI booming now.
We've had too many Republikkkans, in the White House and Congress and the Senate, and we haven't gotten militant enough about protecting our country. I remember thinking that after Citizen's United, that we were in big trouble, but even the relatively accurate reporting never touched on how unbelievably dangerous it was. When The Handmaid's Tale tv show came out (I had read the book years before) I really thought people were waking up.
Well, we're awake now, and a terrified and angry population is a thing of beauty! We've lost a lot, but we can get it back. We just have to stop listening to the conservative party line, "we know what's best for you."
We are in deep trouble. I know several educated otherwise decent people who believe Trump’s lies and don’t accept mainstream news media except for Fox. The polls show how bad a situation we are in.
This is a thought-provoking and concerning analysis. You raise some important points about the corrosive effects of compulsive, pathological lying by public figures and the damage it can do to a society's shared understanding of reality and basic facts.
The sheer volume of lies attributed to the former president is staggering - over 30,000 in just four years. The normalizing of this level of dishonesty from someone in such a powerful position is deeply troubling. As you note, it has led to many of his supporters rejecting objective reality in favor of the narrative pushed by their "tribe" and its leader.
This poses a real threat to the functioning of a democratic society, which requires a baseline of shared facts and an acceptance of legitimate electoral outcomes, even when they are disappointing. If large swaths of the population are unwilling to accept authoritative, verifiable information, it becomes very difficult to resolve disputes or make collective decisions.
The consequences you describe - families suffering from COVID due to vaccine hesitancy, the January 6th attack, the ongoing refusal to accept election results - illustrate how corrosive this dynamic can be. It's not just about one leader's lies, but the way it can metastasize and poison public discourse.
I think you're right to wonder how much lying America can tolerate before it becomes too damaging to sustain. It's a difficult question, as some level of "white lies" and even political spin have long been part of the landscape. But the scale and recklessness of the lying you describe does seem to cross a line.
Ultimately, I believe the health of a democracy requires a shared commitment to facts, reason, and the peaceful transfer of power. When that foundation is eroded, it becomes very difficult to govern effectively or resolve conflicts. It's an issue that deserves serious attention and a concerted effort to strengthen democratic norms and institutions.
In my own life, I have very little tolerance for habitual liars. Honesty and integrity are core values for me. I try to surround myself with people who are truthful, even if that means challenging friends or loved ones at times. It's not always easy, but I believe it's essential for maintaining trust and healthy relationships.
These are complex issues without easy answers. But I appreciate you raising them and sparking this important discussion. It's a critical challenge facing American democracy that requires vigilance and a commitment to factual reality from all of us.
I work with MAGAs in business. They are educated and well off. They don’t see the lies. They think the opposite and believe Trump is great for business. They are devoted to Fox and have no concept of reality. None.
They DO see the lies. But those lies serve their purposes, support their own grievances, reinforce their own “fears”, and pad their bank accounts so- it’s all good, right?
I think it is both - some blindness and self-centeredness. Ultimately, $$ is their priority and/or resentment at supposed barriers to riches. Promises of tax cuts and blaming ‘those people’ are very seductive.
I have one in my family. He has all the tools including a high IQ. Also a history of letting emotions (wants) take over & failing to apply what he knows. Engineering degree and later a masters in marketing. While studying marketing he fell for real estate marketing. I’ve wondered if the professor was in real estate. We had a conversation where he insisted it was the norm for RE values to increase 10% a year. I tried logic (and math) to demonstrate how this would compound and double property values in about 8 yrs. Even without compounding it would double values every 10 yrs. Housing would have become totally unaffordable long ago. Plus history shows such rates over a period of time are anomalies followed by bad news.
I got the brush off. Things had changed & I didn’t know what I was talking about. Soon afterward he purchased a land and home at the top of the housing bubble; was angry when it quickly went underwater & voted for Donnie. Before the last election he made a comment about someone who “at least” wasn’t a liar like trump. We never asked what that was about. It’s hard to say if he learned his lesson that time.
Funny (not funny): in a totally non-political conversation with my sister she stopped, looked at me, and said with a face that hinted at some foul stench was irritating her delicate nostrils, “Well, I know you’re a liberal”. In my usual chicken way I THOUGHT (but did not say aloud): “Geez, it’s not gonorrhea!!”
They will go fascist because they think that they are untouchable under Republican Administrations. They were. But under Trump and full-on fascism, they are not much safer than the rest of us peons.
I agree with everybody who says Fox News, OANN, right wing radio and all the other liars are the cause of the problem. All we have to do is make them change the name, it is not news when you are not telling the truth. They can call it anything they want, except news. That is unfair to the whole country.
I have long gone back and forth on how many people actually believe what he’s saying and how many simply do not care that he’s lying. I think maybe 20% believe most of what he says, even the most ridiculous….that leaves 80% simply not caring, which is more damning for our democracy’s survival. I loathe trump to my core, but he is still just one person. Our biggest downfall is our stupidity, ignorance, and uncaring.
It seems those of us who prefer the truth are often labeled as abrasive or difficult. We have all told little white lies, to avoid hurting some dear one’s feelings. But when obvious lies are involved, we balk, even when it makes us social outsiders. I have ended a relationship because of my partner’s propensity for hyperbole, embellishments and lies that some would think aren’t important. Slippery slope, I say! Accept one and you may end up with Trump…
No, I do not continue a relationship with people who lie and deceive, and I don’t believe most would in a real interpersonal relationship. For these reasons it suggests that the Trumptillian mob tolerate his lies (and some are obvious falsehoods to anyone of voting age) because they like the false narratives he spins and are comforted by it.
He picks at their fear, uncertainty and doubt, the magic levers used by all hucksters, and salves them. It isn’t about truth, it is an emotional exchange that his mob needs.
The heightened dishonest environment perpetuated especially by TYrump, and Far Right media, and then lapped up and regurgitated by sycophants --is causing a “space/time” shift in Reality....!
This coupled with shear stubbornness to face the Truth by many MAGA (some of my relatives 💔) perhaps also fearing to be exposed, and derided for their past blind acceptance of these lies ....has placed this country in a perilous combustible composition of dangerous choices,...and only one Right Choice....only one....!
Do NOT vote for a Dictatorship..!
Do NOT vote for TYrump...!
Vote for Biden...! Save our Democracy! Save our Country...!
Excerpt from Stevens article. ...”I think it’s useful to consider whether the insidious nature of compulsive lying perpetrated by one of the most famous people in the world has caused long-term consequences. Court proceedings can clarify what is true and what is false—who is guilty of a crime and who is innocent—but the believers of the lies and the liar may never accept a court’s verdict or the actual outcome of an election. If a sizable portion of our country has abandoned facts to side with the narrative of their tribe and whatever their leader says, how long will our democracy remain afloat?”..
This is a great question. The short answer is: not much more. The elections of 2018, 2020 and 2022 were all, in part, referenda on lying. Each of them made a statement, but not a strong enough statement. The upcoming election is the most important referendum of all. Register. And vote. Keep the Republic.
The idea of America cannot tolerate leaders who lie. Americans must stop electing them.
It's always been a common parental practice to teach small children not to lie, not to self-defend with lies or fibs, not to lie about another's deeds, not to lie to enhance feelings of self-worth. Yet somehow that basic and core belief - that truth is the best way - has been distorted and lost under trump. Personally, I've always found the Mango of Chaos to be a ridiculous, shameful presence. I do not and cannot understand his fans. But more than Trump's lack of attraction as a personality, that his lying ways have resonated as a positive with parents, women especially, and the public iin general is the most surreal aspect of Trump's presidency and post-presidency. The people who will reject Trump's losses in court seem unaware that it has been juries (and grand juries) of their, ours and Trump's peers who have found him criminal.
Interesting question, how much lying do I tolerate? There's a difference between bs and outright lies, one gets rolling my eyes and the other gets the look over the top of my glasses and the sight of my back on the way out. One benefit of a small town life is common courtesy so I'm not impacted by liars on a day to day basis; on the tube, the clicker is always within reach; on the internet, the block button is easy to find.
To use his own words, he’s poisoning the blood of this country by creating a following that denies basic facts about its functioning. The effects are real, and it will take resolve and time to fix it. But I’m hopeful. They say what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger, and that surely applies to the American people collectively as well as us as individuals. In the long run, the Trump years are teaching us, I truly believe, what we never want to repeat. Germany recovered.
Steven, I assume that lying has been going on in our country for quite some time. Adams and Jefferson supporters were surely telling whoppers about those two men in the 1800 election. So the lies are a given. I'm more worried about the ability of folks to discern truth from fiction. Whether the education system generally, or its lack of financial support is to blame is above my pay grade. There's also a political advantage to be gained from the increasing ability to pull the wool over some folks eyes. I'm forced to conclude that we may not be able to withstand the current state of prevaricating.
People have always (since I was a kid, anyway) accepted that lying politicians were just par for the course, and in truth, politicians sometimes really do have to lie, national security and all that.
But this is a different kettle of ketchup altogether. I can never contain my horror when I hear, "I trust tRump, he tells the truth!" Unbelievable. Unbearable.
I guess my response to "how much lying can the American people tolerate" is "Way more already than I ever thought possible." Sure, politicians have always lied at one point or another, but if it was a lie about an ascertainable FACT someone, possibly Walter Cronkite, would set the country straight.
The major turning point (apart from Talk Radio and pre-trump Fox) was Kelly Conway and her "alternative facts." This, combined with the constant refrain of Fake News, set up a mistrust in what actually was happening. Even trump admitting (as he did) that by "Fake news" he meant "things I don't like" didn't stop the mistrust. He said things like "don't believe what you see, believe what I tell you." And people deepening their descent into the cult, just went OH-kay,
I've thought a lot about lies and what they are. They aren't simply misstatements even when the speaker should know they aren't true. They aren't just untruths. There has to be an intent to deceive and, I would argue, to deceive for personal gain. That gain can be a toddler trying to evade punishment for things he knew he did that were wrong. Or it can be to make people believe a false narrative that benefits you somehow. Or it can just be to salve your own ego--not wanting to admit you took the last piece of cake because that makes you look greedy.
The intent element of the purveyor is the same as in the difference between misinformation and disinformation.
I'm not against white lies, because they are generally not for personal gain, but to avoid hurting someone needlessly. "That's a great hat" doesn't really GET you anything other than not hurting a friend. I guess I would label that sort of thing as 'untruths for an admirable reason" as opposed to a personal one. ("Of course that doesn't make you look fat" is borderline--depends on whether avoiding the ire of a spouse is more important than suggesting spouse not wear that as mother of the bride.)
Trump is a master of the dog whistle lie with a "savings clause" --"And some, I guess, are very nice people." The intent is clearly to make the dog hear the whistle only and the whistle part of course isn't true. He also lies by name-calling (though name calling isn't only a GOP thing, do you hear me Jeff Tiedrich? But behind a Tiedrich style name is usually a kernel of truth that make his names satirical . Not so with trump for the most part.)
The lies that are destroying us are the lies of propaganda--those that twist facts to fit a narrative that people want to believe. It is the narrative, not the truth or falsity of the facts, that people are responding to way too much. That's why just correcting a fact doesn't do much good with the True Believers. The whole realm of thought errors are being deployed to promote the narrative (again, sometime on both sides). Overgeneralization is my biggest bugaboo, and the inability to distinguish the differences between two things that have some similarities but not relevant similarities to the point at issue. Saying things out of context is also rampant. Lying by omission is just as bad as a bald-faced lie if the omission is intended to deceive. These are being encouraged wholesale by the techniques of propaganda.
I grew up during the Cold War. We actually had classes (often in that long abandoned course, Civics) that went through the techniques of propaganda. Those classes were obviously aimed at understanding and analyzing Russian propaganda. I don't think many schools are teaching this stuff now, and people are falling headfirst into propaganda of all sorts, including nowadays, Russian once again.
Yes, I think this will last past the Liar in Chief, because it is based not just on HIS lies but on the whole panoply of thought errors the propagandists propagate. Until we can all learn to deal with those thought errors--and not be so full of hubris that we think WE don't have them so why watch ourselves--I think this country is in for a long, hard road. Education in thought errors might help, but I can see politicians now claiming that such education is "indoctrination."
What we have had is a long period of operant conditioning--someone tosses a lie at us and we drool. Trump, with his permission to everyone to let loose their darkest side, all the fears we have buried in the name of simple civility, has, with his god-help-us-charisma, rewarded us (well, I hope "them") with his apparent approval of that dark side. It's a truly nasty situation--and the conditioning is now in place and his absence from the scene may well not change the drool at the lie that "affirms" us.
Trump is a pathetic excuse for a man, and he has wounded our political discourse for the near term. With +30% of the country lacking critical thinking skills, I think "Fair and Balanced" needs to be reintroduced for all media outlets. The country, especially the south, has always been sceptical of the federal government. Now, more than ever, truth is needed. Thank you for all that you do.
I firmly believe that the major news organizations give Trump a pass on his incessant lies. Calling him out every chance they get would go a long way in countering those lies. I just watched an interview where Trump stated that the crime rate in Venezuela had dropped dramatically and he attributed this to the fact that those who were committing crimes in Venezuela were all shipped to the USA and have crossed the border and are now in the US committing crimes here. The reporter asked him where he got his information and Trump was somewhat taken aback but came up with the answer that he got his information from the papers. What papers, I do not know. Could it be the fake news he so often refers to? Challenge him and he will be unable, in most instances to come up with a viable answer. Liars do not like to be called out for their lies, especially a narcissistic, pathological liar, such as Trump.
Thank-you. So spot on, but I would add that a vibrant, tenacious press was originally given the task of exposing and correcting lies and liars. Seems too often they merely amplify, or worse, create corroborating falsehoods to give credence to the original.
Like Mr. Beschloss, I'm baffled that we permit our elected officials to lie to us. But there seems to be so little recourse. Take George Santos as an extreme example. Santos lied to get elected. Santos lied about so many things after winning the election, yet the people who elected him were powerless to do anything about it until the next election. In the corporate world, this type of lying would not be tolerated and I would have expected a prompt termination once the lies were exposed. We need a better system of accountability for our elected officials so that we can remove individuals who lie to get elected and/or lie to retain their positions of power.
The 1787 Constitution allows lying, propaganda and conspiracy theory as free speech under the 1st Amendment according to SCOTUS. I doubt if that was the real intent of the Founding Fathers. They wanted THE PEOPLE to be able to speak TRUTH TO POWER. The modernized Constitution in A MORE PERFECT DEMOCRACY: MODERNIZING THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION FOR THE 21ST CENTURY corrects that misinterpretation by including ONLY TRUTH is allowed under the 1st Amendment.
Decades of demonising so-called cultural elites has resulted in underfunding schools and an increase in a population lacking the critical thinking and literacy skills to determine fact from lie. Authoritarianism depends on this. More than the lies, it’s the righteousness of believing whatever bilge pours from their factories of deceit. We are generations away from the normalcy we crave.
I find it astonishing the number of people who blithely accept his blatant lies. If their child lied to them, it wouldn’t be acceptable, but the leader of the country? Oh, no, we can’t question him! Idiots.
One of the biggest problems with the MAGA lies and propaganda is the very nature of it. Trump and his followers will regularly shave a little off the truth as if they’re making a butter sculpture at the fair. What we’re left with is a blend of ‘fatuous’ lies and half-truths that melt into each other and become one big block. Because truth and problem-solving often require complex thinking, the truth can often be buried deep within the mountain of irrelevant and incongruous material repeated and sculpted and manipulated beyond recognition, sometimes emerging as less believable than the lie. It’s easier to believe and repeat the lie than to search and struggle for the truth. Sigh.
The Soviet Union did not fall from economic problems or a war. It was the pervasive lies that people in power told each other. Institutional lying brought the Soviet Union down, and it can happen here.
When at least 1/3 of the population believe Trump's lies already, we're past the point of no return. These people actually think Trump won and others want him to be a dictator.
Ironically, the most effective response to lies is humor -- ridicule and mockery are devastating to a liar. Trying to debate a liar with truth and facts simply descends into a pissing contest. As Watergate Committee chairman Sam Ervin put, "When you get into the mud with a pig, you get dirty and the pig enjoys it." Instead, follow the lead of Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, Jimmy Kimmel and even Barack Obama -- Mock their lies, ridicule them for their idiocy. And forget about his MAGA tribe, they are cult followers. The only people who matter are traditional conservatives and independents.
Recently the following occurred to me. Frequently Trump supporters try to explain away the candidate’s troubling statements by saying “oh, he really didn’t mean that.” That is a damning claim because it essentially means don’t believe Trump when he says something. Why would sane person vote for a candidate who cannot be taken at his word?
The same laws for products and services that require advertisements to be truthful should be applied to politicians and the media. Their influence is far too powerful to allow them to continue to be to deceptive and to flat out lie to the people of our country. Allowing this dishonestly and disinformation to go on relentlessly has cause great harm to our country. Laws need to be passed to put a stop to this. They need to be required to report the news and campaign accurately, truthfully with fact-based evidence. Stop the deception and lies!
I hear you, but we are on dangerous ground right now because this country has allowed unlimited freedom of speech. Not all speech is allowed. There are instances where speech can legally be restricted under the law. Like when it violates the rights of others or advocates hatred and incites discrimination or violence. Other unprotected speech includes obscenity, child pornography, defamatory speech, false advertising, true threats, and fighting words. It seems there are actually several categories of unprotected speech that apply to the media, politicians and other well known influencers. They are selling a product. That product is hatred & discontent. They are making millions upon millions of dollars selling lies, disinformation, propaganda, and conspiracy theories. They are a huge danger to our country. Why should we continue to allow tens of millions of minds to be brainwashed with harmful inflammatory false information?
Pathological liars lie even when they don’t need to. He is actually toddler in a man’s body. Good parenting means you don’t allow children to lie and reward honesty. It’s obvious he has been raised by abusive parents - one who verbally berated him and one who abused him through neglect.
I was raised and I raised my son that lies were not acceptable and if I lied my punishment was doubled. So as a young teen, a girlfriend and I got caught stealing some makeup. The store manager gave us a stern warning and advised us we should tell our parents about our crime. And that’s what I did as soon as we got back to the car. Lots of tears and I’m sorries. Never did that again!
Sounds like Trump raised himself and of course did a crappy job. Multiple schools, lying to get out of military service and watching Grandpa and Dad lie, lie, lie. Because he didn’t live up to his family’s expectations, he doubled down on lying.
The old saying, “if his lips are moving, he’s lying” certainly applies. His lying now is to cover up his deep anxiety about being less than expected. He also gets off on the fact that the “stupid MAGA idiots” believe every preposterous lie. Getting into politics has been hard on him so his lies have become bigger and more frequent.
History will not be kind when it is written and he’ll have the word LIAR stamped on his forehead.
I’ve used a couple of phrases to describe the lack of truth from Trump and his cronies. For instance, he definitely was the “prevaricator-in-chief during his term. And owing to his incessant lying, I compared him to the old tale, The Emperor’s New Suit. It’s hard to tell whether he knew he was lying or just plain stupidity; I’d bet on the former. And look at the number of his cronies, whether in official positions or not, who seemed to catch the same tone of presenting lies rather than the truth. How about Mike the Pillow Guy? Unfortunately his supporters are either too stupid or perhaps too greedy to believe anything else.
A secret billionaire dinner party in Hollywood, convened by Elon Musk and David Sacks, presages a major political realignment as Silicon Valley money turns against Biden and begins flowing to Donald Trump.
Republican lies wouldn't matter so much except that Fox, Oann, Newsmax, etc. elevate them. And, instead of checking them out with other sources, these MAGA believe them instantly. I worry that this firehose of lies is too much for any other news media to fact check. Yes, as Judy McNichols says below, the Fairness Doctrine must be updated and reinstated.
I was saying to my wife not long ago that ‘freedom of speech’ is wrongly being interpreted in America as the right to lie … where are the American Individuals’ responsibilities to tell the truth?
The problem with lying in our country is that Fox “News” and the Rush Limbaugh types lie for hours every day and people think/believe it is the truth. Unless it is legitimate journalism, these outlets should have a label as opinion only. Propaganda has no place in a democracy. The other issue is education so that people can use their critical thinking skills to know when they’re being gaslit.
Lying is only one of many problems in the 237 year old Constitution. Our society is now very different than in 1787 and recent decades have put the spotlight on many of the abuses now occurring. We need to modernize the Constitution for the 21st century. Please read the book.
To build a successful relationship, the first essential is a strong foundation and for me, strong foundations are built with trust. If a person lies to me, it’s impossible to build, and existing relationships crumble when the foundation teeters on a lie.
I’ve long said that if Trump’s lips are moving, he’s lying. So his cult lies, both repeating his lies and fabricating new lies to bolster their idol. Add to the mountain of lies the craziness of Q and that people actually believe the insanity of that. The lies become conspiracy theories and our world suffers.
We can’t omit the “lies” generated by AI now, either. I’m nearly to the point where I question every image, even those that aren’t obviously AI generated, and the result is a sadness for our future. Isn’t our natural world and (most) human-made designs beautiful in their own right? For me, these images are as much a lie and also damaging.
I've found that it seems like more and more we live in a post-truth cesspool even beyond Trump.
I was recently curious about a very obscure fact of history someone mentioned to me in a comment thread, but when I used search engines to try and learn more about it, the first 10 pages of results were ALL conspiracy theories only tenuously related to the original idea. It was so dispiriting. I gave up.
Likewise, it seems we've over indexed into telling everyone "just be confident" and "fake it 'til you make it." Hardly anyone I encounter in both hobbies and professional life can admit they don't know something or they've made a mistake. Meetings are constantly filled with people confidently purporting what they think they know, but few people actually seem to really have their basic information right or their ducks of pertinent knowledge all in a row.
I don't see how we can have a successful future as a country or a species, when so much of what we think and do seems built upon a towering facade of bullshit.
It takes a lot longer to do something right, when everyone just goes through the motions of pretending they know what they're doing and forging ahead with the wrong information and doing the wrong things. There's a lost benefit in admitting what you don't know and actually trying to learn that missing information and/or skill *before* you push ahead and waste everyone else's time, efforts, and energy going in an entirely wrong direction.
We need to return to a form of society where it's okay to say, "I don't know, let me try to find out." That's a valuable admission of proper humility and a sign you might actually be open to improvement and learning.
I often wished we were willing to make ALL jobs tenable sources of a decent living in America, rather than pretending we need an army of overly confident incompetents perpetually scheduling meetings to be carried up a mountain by the 20% of Sherpas (often grossly underpaid) who actually know how to do the work and DO the work. All this BS just to validate a few more modern "middle class" jobs that don't really accomplish anything in their own right.
Damn straight. If you ever want to know how to do a certain job correctly, ask the people at the bottom of the totem pole. They are the only people who know what they're doing.
I don’t tolerate lying in my circle, but is amazing the people that don’t want to know the truth. I’m labeled the difficult one because I won’t be ‘convinced’ by their version. I’m the stubborn sibling of six that won’t just go along. Lonely feeling growing up, but now the truth is so obvious, I’m proud to stand alone with the truth supporting me. And, for people like you. Thanks 🦕
Absolutely! I was always the "difficult" one; "why can't you just get along?" But the truth seemed so obvious to me. My parents, both raging alcoholics, would spin, obfuscate, and dissemble when confronted with their actions and words and the results of such, and I became a master at pointing out their inconsistencies, their self-aggrandising statements, and their arrogant assumption that all they said was gospel. I too spent a long life alone but for a few close friends, labeled an "uppity" woman by men who didn't like my independence of thought, and yet I am still satisfied with my reliance on facts and the truth. You are not alone and reading your words helped me realize that neither am I. Small consolation, but gratifying nonetheless.
. I know there are a few of us out there. We just have to find each. Thanks so much for reaching out. At least we know there are two of us. 🦕
You're not alone, Lauri. Your story is my story. The worst thing about living that kind of life is that you learn not to trust, so when you do, it's the wrong people. I had close friends only a few times in my life, and I married a man I never trusted because not trusting was normal for me.
Trusting people nowadays is foolish. Trust has to be earned, not just handed out like candy. To trust a stranger is to take a big risk.
That's me the difficult one always ruining family event. I finally stopped going. I set boundaries. They can have my kids but not get the chance to demean me in their presence. 🫶🏼🤗
Interesting you bring this up — if anything, rather than inured to his lies, I’ve become ever closer to the boiling point of late. The public is not permitted to see and hear what goes on live in the courtroom, and yet his insanely outrageous pronouncements outside the courtroom are free to fly out into the airwaves and take root in the gullible minds of his supporters, or those unfamiliar with the law. Why doesn’t the media correct this dangerous rant as it happens, or honestly report that “Mr. Trump just said such and such, which is not true”? The judge may have admonished Mr. Trump for untruthfully announcing that the “gag order” prevents him from testifying, but who among his followers heard that? How many understand how he’s perverted the meaning of 1st Amendment rights, or that it matters? His maliciousness is effective because we let it be so.
He was ignorant of the facts, but when corrected, he did publicly correct his statement.
This is interesting. Are you referring to Trump's statement(s) that the gag order imposed on him by the judge prevents him from testifying in his trial?
If so, are you saying that the former president of the USA, someone who often claims to know more about any topic than anyone else, was not aware of his right to testify on his own behalf? And do you believe that?
And I am aware that he silently acknowledged in court the judge's correction of his "ignorance", but I haven't seen, and cannot imagine, him publicly admitting such a mistake or ignorance. That must have been epic!
My apologies if I'm misreading your comment.
Recently I heard that he does know many things that he touts as lies. In this case his lawyers most certainly laid out what the gag order entailed . However if it doesn’t fit his pity poor me narrative he continues to say what he wants. What has to happen is plain mockery on a large scale by the media. I am sorry it doesn’t sound very professional but believe me it can be done with such decorum that it will have the needed effect. Call him out as an uninformed stupid man that doesn’t even know the basic law. Stop placating him and defending his lies and play acting.
What he wants is his fans to riot in the streets. He tried claiming the police had blocked access for them to protest and that was proved a lie. He felt the need to explain why they aren’t showing up so he told a baldfaced lie and now he is lying about not being allowed to “testify” when what h’s trying to do is avoid taking an oath to not lie and so his only alternative is to come out and claim they won’t let him testify when he has no intention whatsoever of testifying under oath.
Yup. He can’t tell the truth his sensitive ego won’t let that happen. Each criticism cuts deep.
Yes.
He is ignorant of rules, laws, procedures.
Watched him say the first as his lawyer gave him a funny look.
Watched.him say ( next dayi believe) that gag order did not prevent his testimony.
True
He often gives both responses, speaking from both sides of his mouth. Humans hear the one they want.
He is not ignorant of the rules. Mob lawyer Roy Cohn mentored Trump ten years on how to commit fraud and avoid jail. He knows exactly what his limits are and anyone who thinks otherwise is one of his suckers.
However, dementia is increasingly evident, so who knows what remains of his brain. Scary to think such a person could be President.
I sincerely doubt that. Like his other lies, he knew what he was saying was false.
Believe what you want. But on a column discussing lying, don't insinuate that I am.
I in no way was insinuating that you were lying, only that I thought you were mistaken.
Wrote what I saw/heard. Enough !
You can't "see" him in the court to say he acknowledge the judge. You can't see him in court to say, "He looked at his lawyer funny." You can't see ANYTHING that goes on in court so how did you "See? and "hear" what trump said in court? This should be interesting. . .
Bull.
No, you are making excuses for a professional liar because you are in denial.
Do any of you understand the nature of this disorder he has? It’s called Malignant Narcissism. It’s a combination of narcissism and sociopathy. To such a person objective truth does not exist? Is this statement supposed fact going to benefit me? If yes, the statement is indeed a fact. Is this statement going to be bad for me snd my views? It is simply false.
This is also their barometer of right and wrong. To tell the truth I can’t count how many people I’ve known who decide truth or falsehood in this way. They’re literally everywhere and diehard Democrats lie just as much as Republicans when it comes to politics.
You are no longer an objective actor when you live like this. You are an ideologue. All of theories are in fact true by default. If the facts don’t match the predictions of your theories or your hypotheses, then the facts themselves are wrong and must be changed into “alternative facts.”
I work in a social science and let me tell you, the number of people in my field who are ideologues is very high. Many of the papers published in my field are obviously false, yet everyone believes them anyway. If you go against them you will be bullied and ridiculed and can even be denied jobs or tenure.
All this time these ideologues cloak themselves in the mantra of pure empiricism. Those of us who insist on truths that violate core consensus in my field are called cranks, kooks, idiots, and fools.
So you see even science itself is contaminated with ideology snd ideologues.
Robert: just one note. Yes, Trump is a malignant narcissist. He is also now obviously suffering from advancing dementia. It’s been called out by neuroscientists and psychologists. Even I can recognize the symptoms: word salad, tangential thinking, inability to complete a sentence (or sometimes even a word), mixing up time periods and people. Even his walk has been noted as symptomatic of brain damage (eg dementia). Unless he is reading the teleprompter, he makes no sense. So at some point (future or past?) he may actually not know if he is lying. Confabulation is just another symptom.
He’s been believing his own lies all his life. Do you think Biden has any dementia issues or is it just normal aging?
I personally don’t see anything but normal aging with Biden. He still deals with a lifelong stuttering problem which can make him sound a little like he’s slurring. He forgets a name or mixes up a name but less than I do and I’m nearly ten years younger than Biden (LOL).
I’m 66 and names are just murder for me. I can remember most anything else, but names just kill me dead.
So that’s the slurring! I thought it was some aging or dementia thing, and it really worried me.
I think a lot of us stutter just a bit. In fact mild stutters, like mild versions of many things, strike me as simply normal. I watch a lot of podcasts, and a lot of hosts have mild stutters. You go interview people in the street, and many of them have slight stutters.
Fully fluent speech doesn’t seem to be the norm in people.
I believe I even have one myself. No one’s ever mentioned it except for one asshole ages ago, but he was an excessively demanding person as far as others went. He expected so much of people that he was an asshole! You can’t demand too much of people.
Errare humana est!
Until the last eight years, most of us had no idea that Jon Lovitz's SNL character "The Pathological Liar" was a real, possible thing.
I mentioned in my reply to the column which is further down the line, a number of famous lies told & also about a coworker. Yes, I know what he is and why such people act this way.
I stated 2 truthful facts, they were not meant to lead to the discussion that followed.Some are so closed off in their minds that they need to make more of a statement than what exists . They, instead, see alternate facts. Only one responder left proof of my statements. One even responded to proof with "Bull." So, people on 2 sides suffer from the same stubborn mindsets. Sad.
You stated he was not aware, which is false. He was made aware by the judge and his lawyers more than once. If you did not mean to have responses to your statement that Trump was somehow unaware of the meaning of the gag order then you should have gone back to the transcript to make sure he had not conned you as well as his cult followers. So I say again: Bull.
No he wasn’t ignorant of the facts. It has been explained in detail to him and he comes out and lies.
As I get older, I find I tolerate less and less nonsense. I’ve never been able to tolerate a liar and as I get older I have a hair trigger tolerance to liars. These are the people you cut out of your life. Things will never change. They will never ever believe the truth because lies can be much more palatable. I really thought we were a lot smarter in America….and then came 2016
And finding out that it was the biggest publication of lies in our country that turned people away from a decent woman who could have run the country well, towards... THAT. It's nearly unbearable.
Carlye, let’s not forget she DID win the popular vote!!! TFFG has NEVER won more votes than his opponent—it’s only our electoral system that gave him the the presidency….minority rule.
You're absolutely right. My point was it would never have been that close had the Orange Malignancy not cheated. The electoral college needs to go, the filibuster needs to go (both of those were installed by Republikkkans to keep the African American vote from counting).
We HAVE to take all three branches, because unless we fix the Extreme Court, we'll lose every bit of progress we've made in the past fifty years. We can't have the Immoral Minority overpowering the ACTUAL majority!
I couldn’t agree more! We need a blue tidal wave come November
Don’t you blame some of that on Comey and his email BS he brought up again like a week before the election? I think he did a lot of harm and pushed enough people to TFG
I’ve always blamed Comey. He added his opinion to his results. Completely unprofessional, biased, and intentional. I will never get over that.
I totally agree with you.
I think you're both just mad because you look like Hillary Clinton. Understandable, but please contain yourself in public.
It is past the time for the media's Fairness Doctrine to be updated and reinstated! Reagan's administration thought it was an unnecessary set of rules and regulations; shortly after its demise, along came the likes of Rush Limbaugh, et al, followed by Fox News. We here are living with the impact of that disregard of the need for truth in our news media.
Reagan was an evil bastard, and he knew what he was doing. I'm not sure he foresaw the fall of democracy, but he knew exactly what he was releasing.
Democrats have always been more principled, more aware of and concerned with the welfare of other people. Reagan was a sociopath, he just wasn't the blatantly narcissistic bastard that tRump is, and he was even scarier because he had people thinking that he was a kind old man.
Regan economic policy also really started outsourcing American manufacturing jobs.
Yes and he began taxing Social Security.
Don’t forget that Reagan had Alzheimer’s and also couldn’t stay awake during briefings.
And for that? I loathe Nancy and her paranormal psychic that help Nancy run the country for her "beloved Ronnie." BARF. She got pregnant out of wedlock and then went around so prim and proper. UGH!
She was just awful! And the obvious product of lifelong oppression. You could taste the fear coming off of her. I almost felt bad for her. Almost.
When judging the influences of current lying in political circles (adding touches to an already broad-stroked portrait of core deep mendacity) one should not forget that advertising and lobbyists (front door pimps for corporations) have, with sing-song cadence, made lying the main staple of their appealing to the gullible with ready cash. Finding truth in corporation operations is like looking in the bushes for little birds called snipes.
Toward the end, definitely. But during the first few years, he was perfectly lucid and absolutely awful. People covered for him, and he had previously appointed old white men whose points of view were completely in line with his own.
As I've said elsewhere, it's not just tRump I'm worried about. No one can control him. But no one's even watching the behind-the-scenes people, his handlers, the ones who are actually steering him right now. I read pretty obsessively and as far as I can tell, nobody even knows who that is.
Lee Atwater worked in his WH. Atwater did an interview later on how the GOP had to adapt the Southern Strategy to changing voter attitudes. How the policies would hurt blacks the most, attract voters without overt racist language and on the surface appear to be what we might call ‘race neutral.
“Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.…”
The clip is in the large image. Down further is a little grey box with the sound from the full interview.
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/
I read a transcript of the interview and, honestly, it spurred my ptsd from that horrifying era. Even as a young child I couldn't understand that attitude, and thank all the gods, my mother supported my egalitarian views!
Well that’s the truth!
I couldn't agree more.
In the internet age the fairness doctrine would be impossible. We need more reasonable libel laws.
Are you aware that no foreign citizen can own a USA media corporation, like ABC New, or CNN? Well, Good old Ronnie RAYGUN was. And guess how we got Faux Gnus? He gave Rupert Murdoch instant USA citizenship so Murdoch could form Faux Gnus. I have loathed "St. Ronnie" since before 1980 and I do so even more now as his hatred for the government and dismantling it took place all the while he sucked at the teat of American Taxpayer money for the war years as he produced WWII propaganda, California Governor, Sat in the oval office and had his retirement and dementia all supported by the USA Taxpayer. Loathe the man and Nancy.
Embellishing a story to make it more interesting, or appealing, is different than the firehose of absolute BS that we've been subjected to this past decade. Starting with Facebook/Cambridge Analytica in approximately 2013 and the escalator ride downward spiral of our Democracy since 2017 when the alternate facts people corruptly took power, topped with Muskrat f'ing twit in '22. Social media is a megaphone used to spread lies and a definite culprit in the decline of polite society, IMO.
Ain’t that the truth?
Thank you, a very sad truth.
I agree. Just browse Twitter. The absolute lies and BS a conspiracy crap makes your head explode!
I deleted the app in Nov '22 and I make an effort to not clink links to the site that others post (even though I'd love to see some of the cute animal content I look to see if I can find on YouTube instead) X gets no clicks from me.
I just go there to read the insanity. It’s mind boggling
The lying that has the most impact comes from Republicans in general, the idea that America is broken, struggling, losing our world status - and that is all crap. Look, we have issues with the people we are electing almost across the board, irrespective of party, and the dark money is horrifying. But the general narrative leads people to think we are beyond repair, the ”system” doesn't work, and that major changes are needed (a president with more authority than ever).
The answer i see is that many folks will tolerate any amount of lying if they like the lie and its author. We should be wary of those who always support their team and don’t criticize it for lying in the hope their team prevails. They are not interested in truth, facts or character while the amount of lying becomes immaterial.
Do you remember Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, the outrageous things he used to say. How his followers thought he was just making fun of convention to get people's attention. A way of thumbing his nose at small thinkers. Well, here we are again. A man who thinks himself a genius, proving to himself how stupid others are by lying and people believe him. AND, everyone is giving him unlimited attention. While behind the scene, people who benefit by the chaos are doing their skullduggery, normalizing fascism, enacting plans to end democracy.
I sincerely appreciate that you and a number of others can articulate what needs to be said in clear understandable terms.
We appreciate your guidance, leadership, and skills in conveying these ideals.
I have found myself being a bit braver articulating that In my generation words like, "Truth, Mom, Apple Pie, and Superman" were used to convey ideals of the American spirit and invention. Superman, for instance, debuted in 1938, and the specific phrase gained popularity in the 1950s.
The concept of "good things" in American culture has evolved over time. While the ideals mentioned above remain important, issues like social justice and equality have become more prominent in recent decades. And these prominent ideals are the very things that the Trump, Putin, white supremacy, far Christian reich are threatening.
The funny thing about Superman is that he is actually a CANADIAN. Yes, Superman originated in CANADA.
It was more like a joint effort between a Canadian born transplant (to Cleveland) who as an artist drew on his childhood (pardon the pun) and an American born Clevelander who was the writer. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/could-superman-actually-be-canadian-1.1706526
I'm good with immigration. It makes the melting pot flavorfull. Thanks for filling in the details!
There’s another way to lie. Calling the truth fake. Yelling during the State of the Union “you lie”.
Saying trickle down economics works.
WMD in Iraq.
Telling outright lies is not necessarily the worst kind of lie.
Yes, but they’re all wrong, don’t you think? Little white lies are still lies!
Intention matters to me. If you have it in you, lie to my face that I’m a nice and smart guy and even my sarcasm and patronizing is cool. (Just yesterday a commenter said I was insulting and patronizing and it made me almost cry. The truth was not what I wanted to read. ).
Our loss of discernment is reflected in the polls… our IQ has fallen, as our addiction to excessive stimulation has risen.
I don’t respect people who lie to me. But I also have little respect for people who know they are being lied to but deny that is the case because they don’t want to be wrong either. So Trump may be lying to them but they are going to vote for him anyway because he’s not a Democrat. It’s madness, Steven.
Americans have always tolerated a level of lying, especially by their leaders, who were, and are, lying because they feel that is their way to power. In the past, Americans in great numbers followed the Clan, Governor Wallace in Alabama, even FDR, who if you study his presidency, he lied a lot for the "good of the people," which at the time was probably the best to save the country, although he still usually followed the rule of law in what he did - just twisted it a bit, as many Presidents have in the past. So, lying isn't new, but lying to the extent that it is pathological and un-American (over 30K proven lies in four years) is what is so different and often above and beyond the law.
I do not feel we have gone beyond some threshold where the truth doesn't matter. As an optimist, I see signs everywhere as many evangelicals are beginning to wake to the question - WWJD - What Would Jesus Do. The lying, the wanton adultery, the self-gratification of this orange Buffon is becoming so obvious, which we all knew would begin to happen when the truth is forced out in criminal trials. To quote an often used metaphor - "the emperor has no clothes." I read about the young people in disarray (this isn't new, is it?), and the fear they will not support Biden. I didn't vote for Biden in the 2020 primary, don't really care for him personally, but would I vote for Trump - ever? Of course not, and neither will any person who is not so buried in Fox News which is much like their fearless leader - liars, which hopefully will be taken down after the election as a traitorous organization that itself is built almost totally on lies and propaganda.
I may be wrong, but I sense that this election will not be close. I believe there will be violence perpetrated by MAGAs, especially if it is obvious they have lost, but they will be easily controlled, unfortunately with blood flowing to a certain extent, but nowhere near being successful. The Congress will be back in the hands of Democrats and "sane" Republicans and generally more sane people who will begin to right the ship and move us all into a new era. I am an optimist, but I do not believe I am a Pollyanna.
I hope and yet fear you are right: right about the sanity righting the ship and fear about the bloodshed, though I think it may have to come to that to wake some of these brainwashed zombies to reality. After all, this country has gone through violent paroxysms that were not wars to elicit change many times, from unionizing strike violence in Homestead and Haymarket and Ludlow, to the Civil Rights marches, Vietnam War protests and Kent State, Rodney King riots in LA, and the Black Lives Matter movement which is still getting backlash from these "christian" white supremacists. It takes work from all of us to strengthen our institutions by being informed voters and making sure we inform those who are too apathetic to see the deranged elephant charging at us. Keep talking about that Time magazine interview and Project 2025, make sure you vote not only in every election but COMEPLETELY down the ballot.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I don't think it'll be close in November, and I do think that most sane people will vote for anyone besides tRump.
I also think that his "base" is shrinking, because he's screwed so many in the party. At some point, they have to admit that they got it wrong, otherwise they won't have a party left.
I'm quite sure that eventually, they'll find someone reasonable, and tRump will be what Reagan is now: a footnote, "what great things he did for us!" and nothing more.
Richard, one of my fears is for the voters who don’t like Biden but wouldn’t vote for Trump will turn to a third-party spoiler candidate…..
🤞
I’m always amazed and disgusted that people over the age of 40 don’t remember the 90’s when Fox appeared on the scene and Intentionally and methodically corrupted the idea and traditions of news. Rupert Murdoch is the major cause of this craziness. After the movie Outfoxed - the whistle blowing documentary on Fox - they just kept going and voila! 20 years later and on, they are suddenly more than main stream. It’s not just lies and the disconnect from facts and reality. It’s the insanity of not being able to discern spin and opinion from actual events and reporting. I think the foundations of public confusion and stupidity about lying stems from this origin of blurring the concept of news, information and reporting. We all saw it coming but we somehow couldn’t limit this influence and pervasiveness of Fox. Now how do we ‘fix’ this?!?! It’s a daunting enterprise and more complex with AI booming now.
We've had too many Republikkkans, in the White House and Congress and the Senate, and we haven't gotten militant enough about protecting our country. I remember thinking that after Citizen's United, that we were in big trouble, but even the relatively accurate reporting never touched on how unbelievably dangerous it was. When The Handmaid's Tale tv show came out (I had read the book years before) I really thought people were waking up.
Well, we're awake now, and a terrified and angry population is a thing of beauty! We've lost a lot, but we can get it back. We just have to stop listening to the conservative party line, "we know what's best for you."
We are in deep trouble. I know several educated otherwise decent people who believe Trump’s lies and don’t accept mainstream news media except for Fox. The polls show how bad a situation we are in.
This is a thought-provoking and concerning analysis. You raise some important points about the corrosive effects of compulsive, pathological lying by public figures and the damage it can do to a society's shared understanding of reality and basic facts.
The sheer volume of lies attributed to the former president is staggering - over 30,000 in just four years. The normalizing of this level of dishonesty from someone in such a powerful position is deeply troubling. As you note, it has led to many of his supporters rejecting objective reality in favor of the narrative pushed by their "tribe" and its leader.
This poses a real threat to the functioning of a democratic society, which requires a baseline of shared facts and an acceptance of legitimate electoral outcomes, even when they are disappointing. If large swaths of the population are unwilling to accept authoritative, verifiable information, it becomes very difficult to resolve disputes or make collective decisions.
The consequences you describe - families suffering from COVID due to vaccine hesitancy, the January 6th attack, the ongoing refusal to accept election results - illustrate how corrosive this dynamic can be. It's not just about one leader's lies, but the way it can metastasize and poison public discourse.
I think you're right to wonder how much lying America can tolerate before it becomes too damaging to sustain. It's a difficult question, as some level of "white lies" and even political spin have long been part of the landscape. But the scale and recklessness of the lying you describe does seem to cross a line.
Ultimately, I believe the health of a democracy requires a shared commitment to facts, reason, and the peaceful transfer of power. When that foundation is eroded, it becomes very difficult to govern effectively or resolve conflicts. It's an issue that deserves serious attention and a concerted effort to strengthen democratic norms and institutions.
In my own life, I have very little tolerance for habitual liars. Honesty and integrity are core values for me. I try to surround myself with people who are truthful, even if that means challenging friends or loved ones at times. It's not always easy, but I believe it's essential for maintaining trust and healthy relationships.
These are complex issues without easy answers. But I appreciate you raising them and sparking this important discussion. It's a critical challenge facing American democracy that requires vigilance and a commitment to factual reality from all of us.
I work with MAGAs in business. They are educated and well off. They don’t see the lies. They think the opposite and believe Trump is great for business. They are devoted to Fox and have no concept of reality. None.
And these are educated people. That’s what I just don’t get! I guess you can still be stupid as hell and still boast a Masters degree!
Greed also is part of their problem and Trump knows greed when he sees it.
They DO see the lies. But those lies serve their purposes, support their own grievances, reinforce their own “fears”, and pad their bank accounts so- it’s all good, right?
I think it is both - some blindness and self-centeredness. Ultimately, $$ is their priority and/or resentment at supposed barriers to riches. Promises of tax cuts and blaming ‘those people’ are very seductive.
I have one in my family. He has all the tools including a high IQ. Also a history of letting emotions (wants) take over & failing to apply what he knows. Engineering degree and later a masters in marketing. While studying marketing he fell for real estate marketing. I’ve wondered if the professor was in real estate. We had a conversation where he insisted it was the norm for RE values to increase 10% a year. I tried logic (and math) to demonstrate how this would compound and double property values in about 8 yrs. Even without compounding it would double values every 10 yrs. Housing would have become totally unaffordable long ago. Plus history shows such rates over a period of time are anomalies followed by bad news.
I got the brush off. Things had changed & I didn’t know what I was talking about. Soon afterward he purchased a land and home at the top of the housing bubble; was angry when it quickly went underwater & voted for Donnie. Before the last election he made a comment about someone who “at least” wasn’t a liar like trump. We never asked what that was about. It’s hard to say if he learned his lesson that time.
Funny (not funny): in a totally non-political conversation with my sister she stopped, looked at me, and said with a face that hinted at some foul stench was irritating her delicate nostrils, “Well, I know you’re a liberal”. In my usual chicken way I THOUGHT (but did not say aloud): “Geez, it’s not gonorrhea!!”
Then they will happily go fascist.
They are clueless. They drank the Kool Aid
They will go fascist because they think that they are untouchable under Republican Administrations. They were. But under Trump and full-on fascism, they are not much safer than the rest of us peons.
I agree with everybody who says Fox News, OANN, right wing radio and all the other liars are the cause of the problem. All we have to do is make them change the name, it is not news when you are not telling the truth. They can call it anything they want, except news. That is unfair to the whole country.
I have long gone back and forth on how many people actually believe what he’s saying and how many simply do not care that he’s lying. I think maybe 20% believe most of what he says, even the most ridiculous….that leaves 80% simply not caring, which is more damning for our democracy’s survival. I loathe trump to my core, but he is still just one person. Our biggest downfall is our stupidity, ignorance, and uncaring.
It seems those of us who prefer the truth are often labeled as abrasive or difficult. We have all told little white lies, to avoid hurting some dear one’s feelings. But when obvious lies are involved, we balk, even when it makes us social outsiders. I have ended a relationship because of my partner’s propensity for hyperbole, embellishments and lies that some would think aren’t important. Slippery slope, I say! Accept one and you may end up with Trump…
No, I do not continue a relationship with people who lie and deceive, and I don’t believe most would in a real interpersonal relationship. For these reasons it suggests that the Trumptillian mob tolerate his lies (and some are obvious falsehoods to anyone of voting age) because they like the false narratives he spins and are comforted by it.
He picks at their fear, uncertainty and doubt, the magic levers used by all hucksters, and salves them. It isn’t about truth, it is an emotional exchange that his mob needs.
The heightened dishonest environment perpetuated especially by TYrump, and Far Right media, and then lapped up and regurgitated by sycophants --is causing a “space/time” shift in Reality....!
This coupled with shear stubbornness to face the Truth by many MAGA (some of my relatives 💔) perhaps also fearing to be exposed, and derided for their past blind acceptance of these lies ....has placed this country in a perilous combustible composition of dangerous choices,...and only one Right Choice....only one....!
Do NOT vote for a Dictatorship..!
Do NOT vote for TYrump...!
Vote for Biden...! Save our Democracy! Save our Country...!
Excerpt from Stevens article. ...”I think it’s useful to consider whether the insidious nature of compulsive lying perpetrated by one of the most famous people in the world has caused long-term consequences. Court proceedings can clarify what is true and what is false—who is guilty of a crime and who is innocent—but the believers of the lies and the liar may never accept a court’s verdict or the actual outcome of an election. If a sizable portion of our country has abandoned facts to side with the narrative of their tribe and whatever their leader says, how long will our democracy remain afloat?”..
This is a great question. The short answer is: not much more. The elections of 2018, 2020 and 2022 were all, in part, referenda on lying. Each of them made a statement, but not a strong enough statement. The upcoming election is the most important referendum of all. Register. And vote. Keep the Republic.
The idea of America cannot tolerate leaders who lie. Americans must stop electing them.
It's always been a common parental practice to teach small children not to lie, not to self-defend with lies or fibs, not to lie about another's deeds, not to lie to enhance feelings of self-worth. Yet somehow that basic and core belief - that truth is the best way - has been distorted and lost under trump. Personally, I've always found the Mango of Chaos to be a ridiculous, shameful presence. I do not and cannot understand his fans. But more than Trump's lack of attraction as a personality, that his lying ways have resonated as a positive with parents, women especially, and the public iin general is the most surreal aspect of Trump's presidency and post-presidency. The people who will reject Trump's losses in court seem unaware that it has been juries (and grand juries) of their, ours and Trump's peers who have found him criminal.
Interesting question, how much lying do I tolerate? There's a difference between bs and outright lies, one gets rolling my eyes and the other gets the look over the top of my glasses and the sight of my back on the way out. One benefit of a small town life is common courtesy so I'm not impacted by liars on a day to day basis; on the tube, the clicker is always within reach; on the internet, the block button is easy to find.
Unfortunately that is how they got away with it. We decided to ignore them.
To use his own words, he’s poisoning the blood of this country by creating a following that denies basic facts about its functioning. The effects are real, and it will take resolve and time to fix it. But I’m hopeful. They say what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger, and that surely applies to the American people collectively as well as us as individuals. In the long run, the Trump years are teaching us, I truly believe, what we never want to repeat. Germany recovered.
Steven, I assume that lying has been going on in our country for quite some time. Adams and Jefferson supporters were surely telling whoppers about those two men in the 1800 election. So the lies are a given. I'm more worried about the ability of folks to discern truth from fiction. Whether the education system generally, or its lack of financial support is to blame is above my pay grade. There's also a political advantage to be gained from the increasing ability to pull the wool over some folks eyes. I'm forced to conclude that we may not be able to withstand the current state of prevaricating.
People have always (since I was a kid, anyway) accepted that lying politicians were just par for the course, and in truth, politicians sometimes really do have to lie, national security and all that.
But this is a different kettle of ketchup altogether. I can never contain my horror when I hear, "I trust tRump, he tells the truth!" Unbelievable. Unbearable.
I guess my response to "how much lying can the American people tolerate" is "Way more already than I ever thought possible." Sure, politicians have always lied at one point or another, but if it was a lie about an ascertainable FACT someone, possibly Walter Cronkite, would set the country straight.
The major turning point (apart from Talk Radio and pre-trump Fox) was Kelly Conway and her "alternative facts." This, combined with the constant refrain of Fake News, set up a mistrust in what actually was happening. Even trump admitting (as he did) that by "Fake news" he meant "things I don't like" didn't stop the mistrust. He said things like "don't believe what you see, believe what I tell you." And people deepening their descent into the cult, just went OH-kay,
I've thought a lot about lies and what they are. They aren't simply misstatements even when the speaker should know they aren't true. They aren't just untruths. There has to be an intent to deceive and, I would argue, to deceive for personal gain. That gain can be a toddler trying to evade punishment for things he knew he did that were wrong. Or it can be to make people believe a false narrative that benefits you somehow. Or it can just be to salve your own ego--not wanting to admit you took the last piece of cake because that makes you look greedy.
The intent element of the purveyor is the same as in the difference between misinformation and disinformation.
I'm not against white lies, because they are generally not for personal gain, but to avoid hurting someone needlessly. "That's a great hat" doesn't really GET you anything other than not hurting a friend. I guess I would label that sort of thing as 'untruths for an admirable reason" as opposed to a personal one. ("Of course that doesn't make you look fat" is borderline--depends on whether avoiding the ire of a spouse is more important than suggesting spouse not wear that as mother of the bride.)
Trump is a master of the dog whistle lie with a "savings clause" --"And some, I guess, are very nice people." The intent is clearly to make the dog hear the whistle only and the whistle part of course isn't true. He also lies by name-calling (though name calling isn't only a GOP thing, do you hear me Jeff Tiedrich? But behind a Tiedrich style name is usually a kernel of truth that make his names satirical . Not so with trump for the most part.)
The lies that are destroying us are the lies of propaganda--those that twist facts to fit a narrative that people want to believe. It is the narrative, not the truth or falsity of the facts, that people are responding to way too much. That's why just correcting a fact doesn't do much good with the True Believers. The whole realm of thought errors are being deployed to promote the narrative (again, sometime on both sides). Overgeneralization is my biggest bugaboo, and the inability to distinguish the differences between two things that have some similarities but not relevant similarities to the point at issue. Saying things out of context is also rampant. Lying by omission is just as bad as a bald-faced lie if the omission is intended to deceive. These are being encouraged wholesale by the techniques of propaganda.
I grew up during the Cold War. We actually had classes (often in that long abandoned course, Civics) that went through the techniques of propaganda. Those classes were obviously aimed at understanding and analyzing Russian propaganda. I don't think many schools are teaching this stuff now, and people are falling headfirst into propaganda of all sorts, including nowadays, Russian once again.
Yes, I think this will last past the Liar in Chief, because it is based not just on HIS lies but on the whole panoply of thought errors the propagandists propagate. Until we can all learn to deal with those thought errors--and not be so full of hubris that we think WE don't have them so why watch ourselves--I think this country is in for a long, hard road. Education in thought errors might help, but I can see politicians now claiming that such education is "indoctrination."
What we have had is a long period of operant conditioning--someone tosses a lie at us and we drool. Trump, with his permission to everyone to let loose their darkest side, all the fears we have buried in the name of simple civility, has, with his god-help-us-charisma, rewarded us (well, I hope "them") with his apparent approval of that dark side. It's a truly nasty situation--and the conditioning is now in place and his absence from the scene may well not change the drool at the lie that "affirms" us.
Steven,
Trump is a pathetic excuse for a man, and he has wounded our political discourse for the near term. With +30% of the country lacking critical thinking skills, I think "Fair and Balanced" needs to be reintroduced for all media outlets. The country, especially the south, has always been sceptical of the federal government. Now, more than ever, truth is needed. Thank you for all that you do.
I firmly believe that the major news organizations give Trump a pass on his incessant lies. Calling him out every chance they get would go a long way in countering those lies. I just watched an interview where Trump stated that the crime rate in Venezuela had dropped dramatically and he attributed this to the fact that those who were committing crimes in Venezuela were all shipped to the USA and have crossed the border and are now in the US committing crimes here. The reporter asked him where he got his information and Trump was somewhat taken aback but came up with the answer that he got his information from the papers. What papers, I do not know. Could it be the fake news he so often refers to? Challenge him and he will be unable, in most instances to come up with a viable answer. Liars do not like to be called out for their lies, especially a narcissistic, pathological liar, such as Trump.
Thank-you. So spot on, but I would add that a vibrant, tenacious press was originally given the task of exposing and correcting lies and liars. Seems too often they merely amplify, or worse, create corroborating falsehoods to give credence to the original.
Like Mr. Beschloss, I'm baffled that we permit our elected officials to lie to us. But there seems to be so little recourse. Take George Santos as an extreme example. Santos lied to get elected. Santos lied about so many things after winning the election, yet the people who elected him were powerless to do anything about it until the next election. In the corporate world, this type of lying would not be tolerated and I would have expected a prompt termination once the lies were exposed. We need a better system of accountability for our elected officials so that we can remove individuals who lie to get elected and/or lie to retain their positions of power.
The 1787 Constitution allows lying, propaganda and conspiracy theory as free speech under the 1st Amendment according to SCOTUS. I doubt if that was the real intent of the Founding Fathers. They wanted THE PEOPLE to be able to speak TRUTH TO POWER. The modernized Constitution in A MORE PERFECT DEMOCRACY: MODERNIZING THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION FOR THE 21ST CENTURY corrects that misinterpretation by including ONLY TRUTH is allowed under the 1st Amendment.
Decades of demonising so-called cultural elites has resulted in underfunding schools and an increase in a population lacking the critical thinking and literacy skills to determine fact from lie. Authoritarianism depends on this. More than the lies, it’s the righteousness of believing whatever bilge pours from their factories of deceit. We are generations away from the normalcy we crave.
I find it astonishing the number of people who blithely accept his blatant lies. If their child lied to them, it wouldn’t be acceptable, but the leader of the country? Oh, no, we can’t question him! Idiots.
I’m not so sure anymore. I think they are easily duped by anyone who tries to con them.
One of the biggest problems with the MAGA lies and propaganda is the very nature of it. Trump and his followers will regularly shave a little off the truth as if they’re making a butter sculpture at the fair. What we’re left with is a blend of ‘fatuous’ lies and half-truths that melt into each other and become one big block. Because truth and problem-solving often require complex thinking, the truth can often be buried deep within the mountain of irrelevant and incongruous material repeated and sculpted and manipulated beyond recognition, sometimes emerging as less believable than the lie. It’s easier to believe and repeat the lie than to search and struggle for the truth. Sigh.
The Soviet Union did not fall from economic problems or a war. It was the pervasive lies that people in power told each other. Institutional lying brought the Soviet Union down, and it can happen here.
When at least 1/3 of the population believe Trump's lies already, we're past the point of no return. These people actually think Trump won and others want him to be a dictator.
Ironically, the most effective response to lies is humor -- ridicule and mockery are devastating to a liar. Trying to debate a liar with truth and facts simply descends into a pissing contest. As Watergate Committee chairman Sam Ervin put, "When you get into the mud with a pig, you get dirty and the pig enjoys it." Instead, follow the lead of Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, Jimmy Kimmel and even Barack Obama -- Mock their lies, ridicule them for their idiocy. And forget about his MAGA tribe, they are cult followers. The only people who matter are traditional conservatives and independents.
Recently the following occurred to me. Frequently Trump supporters try to explain away the candidate’s troubling statements by saying “oh, he really didn’t mean that.” That is a damning claim because it essentially means don’t believe Trump when he says something. Why would sane person vote for a candidate who cannot be taken at his word?
The same laws for products and services that require advertisements to be truthful should be applied to politicians and the media. Their influence is far too powerful to allow them to continue to be to deceptive and to flat out lie to the people of our country. Allowing this dishonestly and disinformation to go on relentlessly has cause great harm to our country. Laws need to be passed to put a stop to this. They need to be required to report the news and campaign accurately, truthfully with fact-based evidence. Stop the deception and lies!
Social media manipulation helped this to happen and the media was too greedy by far.
It's called the 1st Ammendment. The right to believe what you want and speak that belief.
Who's going to say what we can say???
That is dangerous ground.
"They" think "we" are telling lies...
LIES Are not free speech.
I hear you, but we are on dangerous ground right now because this country has allowed unlimited freedom of speech. Not all speech is allowed. There are instances where speech can legally be restricted under the law. Like when it violates the rights of others or advocates hatred and incites discrimination or violence. Other unprotected speech includes obscenity, child pornography, defamatory speech, false advertising, true threats, and fighting words. It seems there are actually several categories of unprotected speech that apply to the media, politicians and other well known influencers. They are selling a product. That product is hatred & discontent. They are making millions upon millions of dollars selling lies, disinformation, propaganda, and conspiracy theories. They are a huge danger to our country. Why should we continue to allow tens of millions of minds to be brainwashed with harmful inflammatory false information?
Pathological liars lie even when they don’t need to. He is actually toddler in a man’s body. Good parenting means you don’t allow children to lie and reward honesty. It’s obvious he has been raised by abusive parents - one who verbally berated him and one who abused him through neglect.
I was raised and I raised my son that lies were not acceptable and if I lied my punishment was doubled. So as a young teen, a girlfriend and I got caught stealing some makeup. The store manager gave us a stern warning and advised us we should tell our parents about our crime. And that’s what I did as soon as we got back to the car. Lots of tears and I’m sorries. Never did that again!
Sounds like Trump raised himself and of course did a crappy job. Multiple schools, lying to get out of military service and watching Grandpa and Dad lie, lie, lie. Because he didn’t live up to his family’s expectations, he doubled down on lying.
The old saying, “if his lips are moving, he’s lying” certainly applies. His lying now is to cover up his deep anxiety about being less than expected. He also gets off on the fact that the “stupid MAGA idiots” believe every preposterous lie. Getting into politics has been hard on him so his lies have become bigger and more frequent.
History will not be kind when it is written and he’ll have the word LIAR stamped on his forehead.
I’ve used a couple of phrases to describe the lack of truth from Trump and his cronies. For instance, he definitely was the “prevaricator-in-chief during his term. And owing to his incessant lying, I compared him to the old tale, The Emperor’s New Suit. It’s hard to tell whether he knew he was lying or just plain stupidity; I’d bet on the former. And look at the number of his cronies, whether in official positions or not, who seemed to catch the same tone of presenting lies rather than the truth. How about Mike the Pillow Guy? Unfortunately his supporters are either too stupid or perhaps too greedy to believe anything else.
Speaking of lying to us………
A secret billionaire dinner party in Hollywood, convened by Elon Musk and David Sacks, presages a major political realignment as Silicon Valley money turns against Biden and begins flowing to Donald Trump.
Politicians are professional liars. Why? Money and power. But 3 things always tell the truth.
Little kids, drunk people, and yoga pants.
Republican lies wouldn't matter so much except that Fox, Oann, Newsmax, etc. elevate them. And, instead of checking them out with other sources, these MAGA believe them instantly. I worry that this firehose of lies is too much for any other news media to fact check. Yes, as Judy McNichols says below, the Fairness Doctrine must be updated and reinstated.
I am in Australia …
I was saying to my wife not long ago that ‘freedom of speech’ is wrongly being interpreted in America as the right to lie … where are the American Individuals’ responsibilities to tell the truth?
Why has this not been discussed?
(Paul: Melbourne, Australia)
Yeah, we agree. Seems to get worse as the wealth increases.
The problem with lying in our country is that Fox “News” and the Rush Limbaugh types lie for hours every day and people think/believe it is the truth. Unless it is legitimate journalism, these outlets should have a label as opinion only. Propaganda has no place in a democracy. The other issue is education so that people can use their critical thinking skills to know when they’re being gaslit.
Lying is only one of many problems in the 237 year old Constitution. Our society is now very different than in 1787 and recent decades have put the spotlight on many of the abuses now occurring. We need to modernize the Constitution for the 21st century. Please read the book.
To build a successful relationship, the first essential is a strong foundation and for me, strong foundations are built with trust. If a person lies to me, it’s impossible to build, and existing relationships crumble when the foundation teeters on a lie.
I’ve long said that if Trump’s lips are moving, he’s lying. So his cult lies, both repeating his lies and fabricating new lies to bolster their idol. Add to the mountain of lies the craziness of Q and that people actually believe the insanity of that. The lies become conspiracy theories and our world suffers.
We can’t omit the “lies” generated by AI now, either. I’m nearly to the point where I question every image, even those that aren’t obviously AI generated, and the result is a sadness for our future. Isn’t our natural world and (most) human-made designs beautiful in their own right? For me, these images are as much a lie and also damaging.
I've found that it seems like more and more we live in a post-truth cesspool even beyond Trump.
I was recently curious about a very obscure fact of history someone mentioned to me in a comment thread, but when I used search engines to try and learn more about it, the first 10 pages of results were ALL conspiracy theories only tenuously related to the original idea. It was so dispiriting. I gave up.
Likewise, it seems we've over indexed into telling everyone "just be confident" and "fake it 'til you make it." Hardly anyone I encounter in both hobbies and professional life can admit they don't know something or they've made a mistake. Meetings are constantly filled with people confidently purporting what they think they know, but few people actually seem to really have their basic information right or their ducks of pertinent knowledge all in a row.
I don't see how we can have a successful future as a country or a species, when so much of what we think and do seems built upon a towering facade of bullshit.
It takes a lot longer to do something right, when everyone just goes through the motions of pretending they know what they're doing and forging ahead with the wrong information and doing the wrong things. There's a lost benefit in admitting what you don't know and actually trying to learn that missing information and/or skill *before* you push ahead and waste everyone else's time, efforts, and energy going in an entirely wrong direction.
We need to return to a form of society where it's okay to say, "I don't know, let me try to find out." That's a valuable admission of proper humility and a sign you might actually be open to improvement and learning.
I often wished we were willing to make ALL jobs tenable sources of a decent living in America, rather than pretending we need an army of overly confident incompetents perpetually scheduling meetings to be carried up a mountain by the 20% of Sherpas (often grossly underpaid) who actually know how to do the work and DO the work. All this BS just to validate a few more modern "middle class" jobs that don't really accomplish anything in their own right.
Damn straight. If you ever want to know how to do a certain job correctly, ask the people at the bottom of the totem pole. They are the only people who know what they're doing.